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First, thanks to Raptormeat who wrote that dictionary and B for pointing it out in another thread.
Given:
that "Chi" means "changed" and Chimer therefore are the "Changed Ones"
Question:
Could this mean that more than just their attitudes were changed?
A point was asked about the physical size of the Chimer/Dunmer in relation to the Altmer: was the orginal demarkation of those who left a physical deminishing in size? (And the slightly different coloration that Alle noticed of the two Chimer skin tones from the Altmer coloration in the game).
I ask this because I still wonder about the whole Chimer into Dunmer sequence: if the Aldmer who became Chimer where physically changed when they first "rebelled" could the change into Dunmer be a simple "aftershock" or follow-up of the orginal change (brought about by the actions of the Tribunal)?
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You've lost me. Who are these "Chimer" again? They sound familiar...
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It is the name for a group of folks that settled the area that became Morrowind. Basically, they were a group of Aldmer (Altmer) separtists that settled down as far away across the continent as they could get from other Aldmer.
They were called the "Chimer" and followed different prophets around. Eventually, they settled and became the Dunmer; you discover more about this process as the story progresses (and one has a few sit-down chats with Azura).
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IMFRCO: Responsive Input:
Does it not appeal to you that the so called "Chimer" were most indefinetelly changed by a certain individual called "Azura"
Factual Input:
The so called "Chimer" indued a Hideous transformaton. During this transformation provided by the God "Azura"... The species of the "Chimer" were cursed with rough Blue skin...and "hideous" red eyes... and the "cursed" ones were "Born".
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Those separatist elves were called Chimer (Changed Ones) before they were given gray skin and red eyes, which means one of three things:
1. They knew that they were going to be given gray skin and red eyes so they took the name Chimer. {It's possible but unlikely.}
2. Bethesda goofed and called them "Changed Ones" without thinking it through first. {This could be the real reason.  }
3. They were called "Changed Ones" for a reason other than their changed appearance (i.e. their religious views perhaps). {This is likely to be the "lore" reason.}
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Quote:
3. They were called "Changed Ones" for a reason other than their changed appearance (i.e. their religious views perhaps). {This is likely to be the "lore" reason.}
Correct me if i'm wrong but the Chimer left from the Aldmer because of change of religion, this could also mean they are the "changed ones" in the sence that they changed from the Aldmer,
on the other the Chimer moved away to stay true of their selfs and keep the old ways, wich would mean they didn't change of anything except locations,
wich i beleave is why they are called Chimer.
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Quote:
Correct me if i'm wrong but the Chimer left from the Aldmer because of change of religion, this could also mean they are the "changed ones" in the sence that they changed from the Aldmer,
on the other the Chimer moved away to stay true of their selfs and keep the old ways, wich would mean they didn't change of anything except locations,
wich i beleave is why they are called Chimer.
You are correct when you say that the Chimer moved away because of their religion. They followed the Prophet Veloth to the lands we now call Morrowind.
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I know that, how about the rest?
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It has always been my belief that the name Chimer was given to Veloth's followers after they became Dunmer to distiguish thier old selves from the rest of the Aldmer.
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Klinefelter
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i dont think the altmer and the chimer were ever the same race. just because they both had golden-colored skin does not mean they were of the same race. bosmer and nords sure as hell share no common ancestry. but when reading the descriptions of the curse placed on the dunmer, nowhere does it say that they chimer were cut down about a foot. the chimer probably just happened to have a skin color similar to that of the altmer, no more of a coincidence that nords and imperials share similar skin colors.
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Klinefelter, it's not speculation that the Chimer and Altmer were once the same race, it's fact. They were after Boethiah ate Trinimac, the champion of Auriel, god of the Altmer.
The primary thing that seems to have changed about them was their attitude towards Lorkhan and the daedra, which has other effects on a the abilities available to them.
As I said, I tend to think the height and appearance differences were naturally occuring, rather than magical. The Chimer migrated to Morrowind and formed a separate group.
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From what I've gotten from various books of lore across Vvardenfell, the Chimer were a group of seperatists, who left the Ald/tmer, following the Prophet Veloth. They moved to Resdayn (now Morrowind), and eventually they became two distinct factions: settled, great house Chimer, and Ashlander Chimer. Then the whole Red Mountain war happened, the tribunal made themselves like gods, and so offended the likes of Azura. She cursed the entire Chimer race for their sins, giving them dark skin and red eyes, and likely shortened stature (though this could easily have happened naturally, via genetics). Because of their curse, the referred to themselves as the Dunmer, and Chimer got lost by the way side. So both names, and changes in appearance, are easily defended as stuff that legitimately happened in history.
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I always tought that the Chimer Great House and Ashlanders came after the Red Mountain war. No if im right and you based that on the fact that Great Houses excisted in the Time of and before the Red Mountain wars, that could be easily explained by, After the War the houses followed the Tribunal instead of the Daedra, the Ashlanders or whatever they were called then didn't.
They were outcasts and moved away to the Ashlands does explaining their names, if they were their earlyer i would also find it strange why they hadn't been completly killed by the Dwemer, seeing that they could clearly kill a bunch of Ashlander soldiers.
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The Nords, Bretons, Imperials, and Ra Gada (Fine, Redguards if you like) are all branches of the Human race.
Were not Chimer simply a branch of Altmer who split off from the main bunch to follow Veloth? Veloth preached his Daedra-Lorkhan stuff and a bunch of Altmer liked the sound of it, so they followed him, called themselves Chimer ("Changed Folk" as in "Those who have changed their ways") and became the Chimer. Not necessarily different from the Altmer, except in name and religious practices. When they reached Morrowind, the whole bunch of Red Mountain incidents occured, and voila: Your Dunmer. I think it's a well known fact that they took the name Dunmer ("Cursed Folk" as in "Those who are cursed") on after they were cursed, and no longer used the name Chimer.
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A possible view:
The Chimer and Altmer were once one race, the Aldmer, adn they all hated Lorkhan. But the group who would become the Chimer factioned off, believing in the teachings of the Psiijc Order, that Mundus is a test rather than a curse, and Lorkhan should be honored.
This made them very unpopular with the Altmer, so they left for Morrowind. There they DID become two groups, the Great House and Ashlander Chimer. The Six Houses were already in place when Lord Nerevar rose to power.
The name "Changed Ones" is most likely due to their change in religious philosophy. Rather than hating Lorkhan and despising the Mundus as a prison, they look on Lorkhan as the creator of an escape for spirits from their true prison in Oblivion.
Also, as a side note, the Bretons are a mongrel race, the cross of Altmer and Nords.
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Edited by TSBasilisk (08/03/03 07:46 PM)
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Quote:
This made them very unpopular with the Altmer, so they left for Morrowind. There they DID become two groups, the Great House and Ashlander Chimer. The Six Houses were already in place when Lord Nerevar rose to power.
The Chimer Great House and Ashlanders split up after the war of the Red Mountain. All of the Ashlanders supported Nerevar and beleaved in what he was doing, if he was from a great house i don't think they would do that.
Another thing
Ashlanders always say that they stayed true to the reall way and not that off the false gods, that is the reason they split up, just like the Chimer they worshipped the Daedra, but then the TRibunal came made themselves gods, and the Ashlanders stayed true to the Daedra.
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It is FACT that Nerevar was a member of the House Indoril. He won the Ashlanders over by swearing to honor their ways, and he fully intended to from all evidence. He was slain during the War, and the Tribunal let that promise slip.
If you had not noticed, there is proof that the Houses existed when the Dwemer died off. The Sixth House, House Dagoth, was destroyed during the War of the First Council, which was when the Dwemer were destroyed.
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I don't doubt that the houses excisted at that time, i was just wondering if their were Ashlanders before the War of the Red Mountain, why would there be, i see no reason for them to be.
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The Ashlanders existed before the War of the First Council because they were the people who followed the teaching of Veloth. The Great Houses had settled and "lost" their way, in the eyes of the Ashlanders, who never left their nomadic lifestyle, like the bedouins of the Sahara.
Besides which, Nerevar swore to uphold their traditions. How could he swear this to a people that didn't exist until after his death?
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TS_B,
It's nice to see someone present a succint version of the orthodox lore view.
I just thought I'd mention that the Chimeri view of Lorkhan (et al) did not necessarily entirely agree with the Psiijic view, since actually very little is know about the specifics of the Psiijic view after all. But I do fully understand and take your point, that this is how the Psiijic view is traditionally represented.
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The Chimer had been in Morrowind since the Merethic Era, and seeing as they wernt changed to Dunmer until the Battle of Red Mountain around 1E700 - they were in Morrowind for a long time as Chimer.
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Before the Battle of Red Mountain, the Great House dunmer were despised by the Ashlanders because they had fallen to decadence, which was one of the Altmeri practices they had wanted to leave behind. Nerevar was accepted by the Ashlanders because he followed their ways, adn became as one of them. He also became Hortator of all 6 houses, which even then was thought to be as great a feat as becoming leader of the Ashlanders. Red Mountain merely made the feeling of separation between the settled and nomadic Dunmer all the stronger.
As a side note, all human races are offshoots from the Nords except for the Red Guards, which are their own category (similar t oour own Caucasion, Negro, etc classifications.)
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Edited by Switch_moo (08/04/03 04:33 AM)
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Dunmer is a race, not a house. Dunmer did not exist before the Battle of Red Mountain.
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Give him a break. He meant Chimer, and we could understand what he meant anyway.
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I didn't mean anything by it, I was just clarifying.
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I used Dunmer in that post to represent the race throughout it's history since their separation from the Altmer. And when I said Great House Dunmer (fine, Chimer), I wa referring to the Chimer that had gone into the Great House political system, NOT to some Great House known as Chimer (or Dunmer, for that matter). In other words, 'Great House' Chimer, not 'Great House Chimer'.
Funny how meaning can get lost without the aid of voice tone and facial expression 
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Oh, that makes sense now. I should have seen it before when you used 'Great House' and 'Ashlander' together. I also guess correcting the usage of Dunmer was also pretty unnecessary considering the name of this thread is "Chi"-mer anyway. 
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