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Xanathar
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Disciple
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Reged: 06/01/00
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Posts: 1036
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Today, I re-read lots of Elder Scrolls documents (that MK post in the TES: Storyboard). And this is one that makes me got a headache. This document is not put in The Imperial Library since we (Me and Q, at that time, did not know where to put this kind of documents. I don't know now about you Q). Since now there are so many scholars that are interested in discussing lore and legend, I bring this up. Okay, no more from me, and enjoy The Dragon Broke
Where were you when the Dragon Broke?
1E1200-2208 The Dragon Break
Scholar-priests of the Alessian Order tamper with the Dragon God of Time.
A fanatical sect of the Alessian Order, the Maruhkati Selective, becomes frustrated by ancient Aldmeri traditions still present within the theological system of the Eight Divines. Specifically, they hated any admission that Akatosh, the Supreme Spirit, was indisputably also Auriel, the Elven High God.
Newly invented rituals were utilized to disprove this theory, to no avail. Finally, the secret masters of the Maruhkati Selective channeled the Aurbis itself to mythically remove those aspects of the Dragon God they disapproved of. A staff or tower appeared before them. The secret masters danced on it until it writhed and trembled and spoke its protonymic.
The tower split into eight pieces and Time broke. The non-linearity of the Dawn Era had returned.
Tamriel slept through the disaster, which 'lasted one thousand and eight years', until the pieces of the tower came to rest on the mortal plane.
Every culture on Tamriel remembers the Dragon Break in some fashion; to most it is a spiritual anguish that they cannot account for. Several texts survive this timeless period, all (unsurprisingly) conflicting with each other regarding events, people, and regions: wars are mentioned in some that never happen in another, the sun changes color depending on the witness, and the gods either walk among the mortals or they don't. Even the 'one thousand and eight years,' a number (some say arbitrarily) chosen by the Elder Council, is an unreliable measure.
Whether or not the secret masters of the Maruhkati Selective were successful is unknown, and any records of their survival were destroyed by the War of Righteousness that ended the Alessian Order a hundred years later.
* * * * *
Where were you when the Dragon Broke?
Corax, Cyrodiil, Elder Council:
"No one understands what happened when the Selectives danced on that tower. It would be easy to dismiss the whole matter as nonsense were it not for the Amulet of Kings. Even the Elder Scrolls do not mention it-let me correct myself, the Elder Scrolls _cannot_ mention it. When the Moth priests attune the Scrolls to the timeless time their glyphs always disappear. The Amulet of Kings, however, with its oversoul of emperors, can speak of it at length. According to Hestra, Cyrodiil became an Empire across the stars. According to Shor-El, Cyrodiil became an egg. Most say something in a language they can only speak sideways. The Council has collected texts and accounts from all of its provinces, and they only offer stories that never coincide, save on one point: all the folk of Tamriel during the Middle Dawn, in whatever 'when' they were caught in, tracked the fall of the eight stars. And that is how they counted their days."
Mehra Nabisi, Dunmer, Triune Mistress of the New Temple:
"Accounts of the Middle Dawn are the province of the Empire of Men, and proof of the deceit that call themselves the Aedra. Eight stars fell on Tamriel, one for each iniquity that Lorkhan made clear to the world. Veloth read these signs, and he told Boethiah, who confirmed them, and he told Mephala, who made wards against them, and he told Azura, who sent ALMSIVI to steer the True Folk clear of harm. Even the Four Corners of the House of Troubles rose to protect the periphery of your madness. We watched our borders and saw them shift like snakes, and saw you run around in it like the spirits of old, devoid of math, without your if-thens, succumbing to the Ever Now like slaves of the slim folly, stasis. Do not ask us where we were when the Dragon Broke, for, of all the world, only we truly know, and we might just show you how to break it again."
Rh'leyt-harhr, Khajiit, Tender to the Mane:
"Do you mean, where were the Khajiiti when the Dragon Broke? I'll tell you where: we were recording it. 'One thousand and eight years,' you've all heard it. You probably believe that the Cyro-Nordics came up with that all on their own. You humans are better thieves than even Rajhin! While you were fighting wars with phantoms and giving birth to your own fathers, it was the Mane that watched the ja-Kha'jay, because the moons were the only constant, and you didn't have the sugar to see it. We'll give you credit: you broke Alkosh something fierce, and that's not easy. Just don't think you solved what you accomplished by it, or can ever solve it. You did it again with Big Walker, not once, but _twice_! Once at Rimmen, which we'll never learn to live with. The second time it was in Daggerfall, or was it Sentinel, or was it Wayrest, or was in all three places at once? Get me, Cyrodiil? When will you wake up and realize what _really_ happened to the Dwarves?"
Mannimarco, God of Worms, the Necromancers:
"The Three Thieves of Morrowind could tell you where they were. So could the High King of Alinor, who was the one who broke in the first place. There are others on this earth that could, too: Ysmir, Pelinal, Hans the Fox (but, then, this is really my warning to you, Arctus; I now know who you are). The Last Dwarf would talk, if they would let him. As for myself, I was here and there and here again, like the rest of the mortals during the Dragon Break. How do you think I learned my mystery? The Maruhkati Selective showed us all the glories of the Dawn so that we might learn, simply: as above, so below."
And then in the other day, MK posted another:
The Dragon Break Reexamined
The late 3rd era was a period of remarkable religious ferment and creativity. The upheavals of the reign of Uriel VII were only the outward signs of the historical forces that would eventually lead to the fall of the Septim Dynasty. The so called "Dragon Break" was first proposed at this time , by a wide variety of cults and fringe sects across the Empire, connected only by a common obsession with the events surrounding Tiber Septim's rise to power -- the "founding myth", if you will, of the Septim Dynasty.
The basis of the Dragon Break doctrine is now known to be a rather prosaic error in the timeline printed in the otherwise authoritative "Encyclopedia Tamreilica", first published in [3E12], during the early year's of Tiber Septim's reign. At that time, the archives of Alinor were still inaccessible to human scholars, and the extant records from the Alessian period were extremely fragmentary. The Alessians had systematically burned all the libraries they could find, and their own records were largely destroyed during the War of Righteousness.
The author of the Encyclopedia Tamrielica was apparently unfamiliar with the Alessian "year", which their priesthood used to record all dates. We now know this refers to the length of the long vision-trances undertaken by the High Priestess, which might last anywhere from a few weeks to several months. Based on analysis of the surviving trance-scrolls, as well as murals and friezes from Alessian temples, I estimate that the Alessian Order actually lasted only about 150 years, rather than the famous "one thousand and eight years" given by the Encylopedia Tamrielica.
The "mystery" of the millenial-plus rule of the Alessians was accepted but unexplained until the spread of the Lorkhan-cults in the late 3rd era, when the doctrine of the Dragon Break took hold. Because this dating (and explanation) was so widely held at the time, and then repeated by historians down through today, it has come to have the force of tradition. Recall, however, that the 3rd era historians were already separated from the Alessians by a gulf of more than 2,000 years. And historiography was still in its infancy, relying on the few archives from those early days.
Today, modern archaeology and paleonumerology have confirmed what my own research in Alessian dating first suggested: that the Dragon Break was invented in the late 3rd era, based on a scholarly error, fueled by that age's obsession with eschatology and Numidiumism, and perpetuated by scholarly inertia.
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~Xayah Ayem Neht
Librarian at The Imperial Library
Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
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Your right Xan that is headache inducing.
One thing I thought of while reading that, maybe everyone else already knows this, could ALMSIVI stand for ALMalexia sotha SIl VIvek.
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I quickly read through "Where were you when the Dragon Broke?" and here are some of my thoughts. They aren't really supposed to fit together. Hence, random  :
First of all, one of the posts in another thread (The Psijic Order, the Altmer, and Lorkhan <Page 2>) seems to contain similiar references.
In reply to:
Originally posted by Kier-Jo:
Kier-jo thinks it is very much like a thing an Elder Way-warder would say.
"The Weakest Souls, called Men, will bring Sithis into every Quarter."
"The Worshippers of the Unnamed Lord, know as 'Argonians' on Nirni, are the Descendents of Boethiah and the Serpent-men."
"The Khajiit, created as Servants by the Aldmer, Rebelled against the Natural Order and Conspired with the Doom Drum to End the Merethic Era."
Kier-jo hears it all before.
Tiber Septim was seen in more than one part of Tamriel at the same time and you are content.
Stormcrown was a Breton, no a Nord, no an Atmoran, and you sit and play in the sand.
A numidium rises in the West and does Eight Things for the Psijics and you do not question.
Your monkeys dance on the Tower and the stars change and you do not remember.
You read the words of the Sermon, but you are blind to the truths between them.
The darkness is reborn, crowned and conquering, and you pull the covers tighter and sleep.
When will you realize what happened to the Dwarves?
When will you Wake from the Elven Lie that all Men believe?
You will find a few duplicate phrases in both.
-----------------------------------------------
Next, I found the quote from The God of Worms interesting:
In reply to:
From: Mannimarco, God of Worms, the Necromancers:
"The Three Thieves of Morrowind could tell you where they were. So could the High King of Alinor, who was the one who broke in the first place. There are others on this earth that could, too: Ysmir, Pelinal, Hans the Fox (but, then, this is really my warning to you, Arctus; I now know who you are). The Last Dwarf would talk, if they would let him. As for myself, I was here and there and here again, like the rest of the mortals during the Dragon Break. How do you think I learned my mystery? The Maruhkati Selective showed us all the glories of the Dawn so that we might learn, simply: as above, so below."
I take "The Three Thieves of Morrowind" to mean the Tribunal. "High King of Alinor, who was the one who broke in the first place" refers to Auriel, I would think. And "The Last Dwarf" was hinted at by Worm God (The Dev).
Finally, this part quoted above from the God of Worms: "As for myself, I was here and there and here again, like the rest of the mortals during the Dragon Break. How do you think I learned my mystery? The Maruhkati Selective showed us all the glories of the Dawn so that we might learn, simply: as above, so below;" combined with an earlier quote from Rh'leyt-harhr, Khajiit, Tender to the Mane; "...fighting wars with phantoms and giving birth to your own fathers;" makes me think of time travel and/or shifting in time: Going from the future to see the past, being in several places at one point in time.
Crazy, I know. It kind of reminds me of something out of Babylon 5.
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Okay, one last quote from The Psijic Order, the Altmer, and Lorkhan...
In reply to:
Jobasha
"To transcend the Mundus, one must learn the Daedra's trick of how to be part of the Mundus without also accepting its limits.
Does "limits"=Time?????
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I think limits could also mean humans/mer/beastpeople are limited in their lifespan, their comprehension of Nirn, and their abilities (or lack thereof).
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I have so many things that I want to say right now, but I do not have time. This is so confusing, yet so many things are jumping out at me.
One question: When did the Alessian Order end?
All it says is, "...the War of Righteousness that ended the Alessian Order a hundred years later."
It seems as if they are claiming that the Alessian Order was 1E1200-2208. That would conflict with other info. Here is what I found at The Imperial Library:
1E243-1E498--The new kingdom of human, under the rule of Empress Alessia, prospers and rule the nearest kingdoms of Colovia. They slowly build the strong national identity as they slowly become the most populous culture of Tamriel.
1E482--Direnni Clan, under the command of Aiden Direnni, defeats the Allessian Army at Glenumbria Moor, however the cost of this victorius battle is dearly for the elves, and this war weakens their power.
AND
1E500--Skyrim, under King Wulfharth (also called Ysmir), submits to a fiery reinstatement of the traditional Nordic pantheon. Alessian temples are destroyed, and remnants of its priesthood seek refuge in the Heartland.
Unless I'm missing something, I find this puzzling.
Edited by B (03/17/02 11:09 AM)
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I will begin our analysis of The Dragon Break and The Dragon Break Reexamined. I divided The Dragon Break into five sections so it would be easier for us to make comments. For now, I left The Dragon Break Reexamined in one piece. Feel free to add anything or point out my mistakes in each section.
Also, I will be making reference to the quote from Kier-jo throughout this analysis:
Kier-jo thinks it is very much like a thing an Elder Way-warder would say.
"The Weakest Souls, called Men, will bring Sithis into every Quarter."
"The Worshippers of the Unnamed Lord, know as 'Argonians' on Nirni, are the Descendents of Boethiah and the Serpent-men."
"The Khajiit, created as Servants by the Aldmer, Rebelled against the Natural Order and Conspired with the Doom Drum to End the Merethic Era."
Kier-jo hears it all before.
Tiber Septim was seen in more than one part of Tamriel at the same time and you are content.
Stormcrown was a Breton, no a Nord, no an Atmoran, and you sit and play in the sand.
A numidium rises in the West and does Eight Things for the Psijics and you do not question.
Your monkeys dance on the Tower and the stars change and you do not remember.
You read the words of the Sermon, but you are blind to the truths between them.
The darkness is reborn, crowned and conquering, and you pull the covers tighter and sleep.
When will you realize what happened to the Dwarves?
When will you Wake from the Elven Lie that all Men believe?
Finally, praise be to Qwerty and all the people who made it easier to search through The Imperial Library!
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Where were you when the Dragon Broke?
1E1200-2208 The Dragon Break
Scholar-priests of the Alessian Order tamper with the Dragon God of Time.
A fanatical sect of the Alessian Order, the Maruhkati Selective, becomes frustrated by ancient Aldmeri traditions still present within the theological system of the Eight Divines. Specifically, they hated any admission that Akatosh, the Supreme Spirit, was indisputably also Auriel, the Elven High God.
Newly invented rituals were utilized to disprove this theory, to no avail. Finally, the secret masters of the Maruhkati Selective channeled the Aurbis itself to mythically remove those aspects of the Dragon God they disapproved of. A staff or tower appeared before them. The secret masters danced on it until it writhed and trembled and spoke its protonymic.
The tower split into eight pieces and Time broke. The non-linearity of the Dawn Era had returned.
Tamriel slept through the disaster, which 'lasted one thousand and eight years', until the pieces of the tower came to rest on the mortal plane.
Every culture on Tamriel remembers the Dragon Break in some fashion; to most it is a spiritual anguish that they cannot account for. Several texts survive this timeless period, all (unsurprisingly) conflicting with each other regarding events, people, and regions: wars are mentioned in some that never happen in another, the sun changes color depending on the witness, and the gods either walk among the mortals or they don't. Even the 'one thousand and eight years,' a number (some say arbitrarily) chosen by the Elder Council, is an unreliable measure.
Whether or not the secret masters of the Maruhkati Selective were successful is unknown, and any records of their survival were destroyed by the War of Righteousness that ended the Alessian Order a hundred years later.
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It seems that this Maruhkati Selective was upset and tried to channel Arubis or alter Time. A Tower or staff appeared, and they danced on it until it split. The only reference to a possible tower that seemed to make sense was the Adamantine Tower where the Gods convened to discuss what to do about Mundus or the Mortal Plane (see Dawn Era). I am not sure if this is the tower to which the text refers.
Interesting side note: Kier-jo said, "Your monkeys dance on the Tower and the stars change and you do not remember." At The Imperial Library, I found that The Alessian Order enforced the Alessian Doctrines which were "the very strict religious teachings of the monkey prophet, Maruhk" (see First Era). That would explain the "Monkey" reference by Kier-jo, and obvioulsy the name Maruhkati Selective.
This Tower or staff split into eight pieces and Time broke. This lasted until the eight pieces came to rest on the mortal plane. If your read through Shezarr and the Eight Divines, it will provide some additional insight on Queen Alessia. Could the "eight pieces" be the Eight Divines?
Finally, the line "The non-linearity of the Dawn Era had returned" makes me think of time seemingly shifting at random or a Warp in Time. A theory that I will work with throughout this analysis.
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Corax, Cyrodiil, Elder Council:
"No one understands what happened when the Selectives danced on that tower. It would be easy to dismiss the whole matter as nonsense were it not for the Amulet of Kings. Even the Elder Scrolls do not mention it-let me correct myself, the Elder Scrolls _cannot_ mention it. When the Moth priests attune the Scrolls to the timeless time their glyphs always disappear. The Amulet of Kings, however, with its oversoul of emperors, can speak of it at length. According to Hestra, Cyrodiil became an Empire across the stars. According to Shor-El, Cyrodiil became an egg. Most say something in a language they can only speak sideways. The Council has collected texts and accounts from all of its provinces, and they only offer stories that never coincide, save on one point: all the folk of Tamriel during the Middle Dawn, in whatever 'when' they were caught in, tracked the fall of the eight stars. And that is how they counted their days."
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Okay, the dying Queen Alessia is transformed into the first of the Cyrodilic saints by Shezarr, AKA Lorkhan, and becomes the first gem in the Cyrodilic Amulet of Kings (First Era). I guess this Amulet of Kings [and Queens ] can keep track of time during this phenomenon.
I'm kind of at a loss with most of the rest. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
One last comment, this text "The Council has collected texts and accounts from all of its provinces, and they only offer stories that never coincide, save on one point: all the folk of Tamriel during the Middle Dawn, in whatever 'when' they were caught in, tracked the fall of the eight stars. And that is how they counted their days," seems to indicate a shifting in time or multiple times existing at once ( A Warp in Time).
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Mehra Nabisi, Dunmer, Triune Mistress of the New Temple:
"Accounts of the Middle Dawn are the province of the Empire of Men, and proof of the deceit that call themselves the Aedra. Eight stars fell on Tamriel, one for each iniquity that Lorkhan made clear to the world. Veloth read these signs, and he told Boethiah, who confirmed them, and he told Mephala, who made wards against them, and he told Azura, who sent ALMSIVI to steer the True Folk clear of harm. Even the Four Corners of the House of Troubles rose to protect the periphery of your madness. We watched our borders and saw them shift like snakes, and saw you run around in it like the spirits of old, devoid of math, without your if-thens, succumbing to the Ever Now like slaves of the slim folly, stasis. Do not ask us where we were when the Dragon Broke, for, of all the world, only we truly know, and we might just show you how to break it again."
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I don't know if this backs up the idea that the eight pieces of the tower are the Eight Divines or Aedra. It appear to do so. Veloth saw this event and told the Daedra, who in turn, sent ALMSIVI (Almalexia, Sotha Sil, and Vivec) to help the True Folk (Dunmer/Chimer/Dwemer? I'm not sure). "Even the Four Corners of the House of Troubles rose to protect the periphery of your madness" probably refers to the Four Great Houses.
The rest is a blur...help. It seems to indicate a stasis in time or a place without "time."
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Rh'leyt-harhr, Khajiit, Tender to the Mane:
"Do you mean, where were the Khajiiti when the Dragon Broke? I'll tell you where: we were recording it. 'One thousand and eight years,' you've all heard it. You probably believe that the Cyro-Nordics came up with that all on their own. You humans are better thieves than even Rajhin! While you were fighting wars with phantoms and giving birth to your own fathers, it was the Mane that watched the ja-Kha'jay, because the moons were the only constant, and you didn't have the sugar to see it. We'll give you credit: you broke Alkosh something fierce, and that's not easy. Just don't think you solved what you accomplished by it, or can ever solve it. You did it again with Big Walker, not once, but _twice_! Once at Rimmen, which we'll never learn to live with. The second time it was in Daggerfall, or was it Sentinel, or was it Wayrest, or was in all three places at once? Get me, Cyrodiil? When will you wake up and realize what _really_ happened to the Dwarves?"
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The Khajiit also confirm that this phenomenon lasted "'One thousand and eight years.'" Rh'leyt-harhr compares the Cyro-Nordics to the thief Rajhin. Unfortunately, I am ignorant when it comes to Khajiiti History.
I interpret the line "...fighting wars with phantoms and giving birth to your own fathers... as a reference to the shifting in time.
Rh'leyt-harhr claims that the moons remained constant but humans did have the sugar (Moon Sugar) to see it. He confirms that Alkosh (the God of Time has many names: see Tamriel Gods) broke.
In "You did it again with Big Walker, not once, but _twice_! Once at Rimmen, which we'll never learn to live with. The second time it was in Daggerfall, or was it Sentinel, or was it Wayrest, or was in all three places at once? Get me, Cyrodiil?" the Big Walker refers to the numidium. "Once at Rimmen.........Is this when Tiber Septim used the Golem to conquer Tamriel?
I'm assuming that "The second time..." refers to the Warp in the West when the numidium was used by many different people at the same time.
Finally, here is the infamous line "When will you wake up and realize what _really_ happened to the Dwarves?"
The Kier-jo quote has two references in this section: "When will you realize what happened to the Dwarves?" and "A numidium rises in the West and does Eight Things for the Psijics and you do not question."
Is Kier-jo saying that the Psijics are/were some how involved in this mess? Are the "eight things" the same as the eight pieces of the tower and/or the Eight Divines?
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Mannimarco, God of Worms, the Necromancers:
"The Three Thieves of Morrowind could tell you where they were. So could the High King of Alinor, who was the one who broke in the first place. There are others on this earth that could, too: Ysmir, Pelinal, Hans the Fox (but, then, this is really my warning to you, Arctus; I now know who you are). The Last Dwarf would talk, if they would let him. As for myself, I was here and there and here again, like the rest of the mortals during the Dragon Break. How do you think I learned my mystery? The Maruhkati Selective showed us all the glories of the Dawn so that we might learn, simply: as above, so below."
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I take "'The Three Thieves of Morrowind'" to mean the Tribunal. "'High King of Alinor, who was the one who broke in the first place'" refers to Auriel, I would think. And "'The Last Dwarf'" was hinted at by Worm God (The Dev).
Now the line, "'There are others on this earth that could, too: Ysmir, Pelinal, Hans the Fox (but, then, this is really my warning to you, Arctus; I now know who you are).'" According to The Imperial Library, during the Merethic Era, "An immortal hero, warrior, sorceror, and king variously known as Pelinal Whitestrake, Harrald Hairy Breeks, Ysmir, Hans the Fox, etc., wanders Tamriel, gathering armies, conquering lands, ruling, then abandoning his kingdoms to wander again" (see Merethic Era). It appears that Mannimarco, The God of Worms, is claiming that the immortal hero from the Merethic and early First Era , known by many names, is also Zurin Arctus (Tiber Septim's Battlemage and The Underking). Agree or disagree?
Finally, "'As for myself, I was here and there and here again, like the rest of the mortals during the Dragon Break. How do you think I learned my mystery? The Maruhkati Selective showed us all the glories of the Dawn so that we might learn, simply: as above, so below.'" This seems to fit into the theory of a shift or Warp in time.
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The Dragon Break Reexamined
The late 3rd era was a period of remarkable religious ferment and creativity. The upheavals of the reign of Uriel VII were only the outward signs of the historical forces that would eventually lead to the fall of the Septim Dynasty. The so called "Dragon Break" was first proposed at this time , by a wide variety of cults and fringe sects across the Empire, connected only by a common obsession with the events surrounding Tiber Septim's rise to power -- the "founding myth", if you will, of the Septim Dynasty.
The basis of the Dragon Break doctrine is now known to be a rather prosaic error in the timeline printed in the otherwise authoritative "Encyclopedia Tamreilica", first published in [3E12], during the early year's of Tiber Septim's reign. At that time, the archives of Alinor were still inaccessible to human scholars, and the extant records from the Alessian period were extremely fragmentary. The Alessians had systematically burned all the libraries they could find, and their own records were largely destroyed during the War of Righteousness.
The author of the Encyclopedia Tamrielica was apparently unfamiliar with the Alessian "year", which their priesthood used to record all dates. We now know this refers to the length of the long vision-trances undertaken by the High Priestess, which might last anywhere from a few weeks to several months. Based on analysis of the surviving trance-scrolls, as well as murals and friezes from Alessian temples, I estimate that the Alessian Order actually lasted only about 150 years, rather than the famous "one thousand and eight years" given by the Encylopedia Tamrielica.
The "mystery" of the millenial-plus rule of the Alessians was accepted but unexplained until the spread of the Lorkhan-cults in the late 3rd era, when the doctrine of the Dragon Break took hold. Because this dating (and explanation) was so widely held at the time, and then repeated by historians down through today, it has come to have the force of tradition. Recall, however, that the 3rd era historians were already separated from the Alessians by a gulf of more than 2,000 years. And historiography was still in its infancy, relying on the few archives from those early days.
Today, modern archaeology and paleonumerology have confirmed what my own research in Alessian dating first suggested: that the Dragon Break was invented in the late 3rd era, based on a scholarly error, fueled by that age's obsession with eschatology and Numidiumism, and perpetuated by scholarly inertia.
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Obviously, this is the rebutal to The Dragon Break.
Here is something shocking. Look at the first two lines: "The late 3rd era was a period of remarkable religious ferment and creativity. The upheavals of the reign of Uriel VII were only the outward signs of the historical forces that would eventually lead to the fall of the Septim Dynasty." They foretell the end of the Septim Dynasty. According to these lines, Uriel VII's reign will end. Is this going to happen in Morrowind (the Game)? Who will be the next Emperor? LOL, watch, it will be YOUR character in the game (pure speculation).
Seriously, back to the study. I guess the rest speaks for itself. Basically, this work presents a different point view of the situation from a different period in time (The Future of Tamriel).
Actually, I kind of like the way it is written. It adds to this whole "time" mess that I seem to have been caught up in for the last several hours 
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Ooo look I'm posting in yellow!!!!!
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Tedders
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Curate
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Reged: 04/08/01
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Posts: 495
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Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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Very nice, Impy.
And you too, B. I wish I had something to add.
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After searching through The Imperial Library, I found a mistake that I had made in my earlier analysis. It makes me wish we could go back and edit our old posts...stupid time limit!
Mehra Nabisi, Dunmer, Triune Mistress of the New Temple:
"Accounts of the Middle Dawn are the province of the Empire of Men, and proof of the deceit that call themselves the Aedra. Eight stars fell on Tamriel, one for each iniquity that Lorkhan made clear to the world. Veloth read these signs, and he told Boethiah, who confirmed them, and he told Mephala, who made wards against them, and he told Azura, who sent ALMSIVI to steer the True Folk clear of harm. Even the Four Corners of the House of Troubles rose to protect the periphery of your madness. We watched our borders and saw them shift like snakes, and saw you run around in it like the spirits of old, devoid of math, without your if-thens, succumbing to the Ever Now like slaves of the slim folly, stasis. Do not ask us where we were when the Dragon Broke, for, of all the world, only we truly know, and we might just show you how to break it again."
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The reference to "...the Four Corners of the House of Troubles..." is specifically talking about the four Deadra: Molag Bal, Malacath, Sheogorath, Mehrunes Dagon.
From Skeleton Man's Interview
Lakelos Char, Steam Gate Quarter, Vivec:
"The Rebel Daedra [Molag Bal, Malacath, Sheogorath, Mehrunes Dagon], in their arrogance and pride, refused to swear fealty to the Tribunal (Blessed Be Their Holy Names), and were cast out of Morrowind forthwith.
These Rebel Daedra thus became the Four Corners of the House of Troubles, and they continue to plague our tranquility and tempt the unwary into Heresy and Dark Worship."
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Mannimarco, God of Worms, the Necromancers:
"The Three Thieves of Morrowind could tell you where they were. So could the High King of Alinor, who was the one who broke in the first place. There are others on this earth that could, too: Ysmir, Pelinal, Hans the Fox (but, then, this is really my warning to you, Arctus; I now know who you are). The Last Dwarf would talk, if they would let him. As for myself, I was here and there and here again, like the rest of the mortals during the Dragon Break. How do you think I learned my mystery? The Maruhkati Selective showed us all the glories of the Dawn so that we might learn, simply: as above, so below."
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Old Thread but a wealth of information: Masser and Secunda
I came across one Amiel Arctus from Cyrodiil, Cyrodiil, Plaza of Emperor Zero. Maybe "Arctus" refers to this person and not Zurin Arctus (Tiber Septim's Battlemage and The Underking). Maybe the two are related. Hmm, I must investigate further...
Oh yeah, if anyone is listening to me, read through the aforementioned thread and share your thoughts.
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No way, as far as I know Manimarco and Zurin Arctus are arch-enemies! I'm sure he was refering to him 
Sorry for the quick post. On spring break you know
Raptormeat
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As one can clearly see by now, I tend to take a more mystical approach to my scholarly studies. That's not to say that specific events cannot be explained in conventional, scientific terms, but once again, I will amuse myself, and hopefully others, with my stream-of-consciousness writing...
As I was searching through numerous texts, I stumbled upon an interview. I found a passage that caught my attention. Take a look at it. I will highlight a paragraph to which I will refer later.
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Xal, a Human Maruhkati, Port Telvanis:
Ah. I will tell you the truth, because you will believe none of it. The Brass God is Anumidum, the Prime Gestalt. He is also called the divine skin. He was meant to be used many times by our kind to transcend the Gray Maybe.
The first to see him was the Shop Foremer, Kagrenac of Vvardenfell, the wisest of the tonal architects [Mechanists - MN] Do not think as others do that Kagrenac created the Anumidum for petty motivations, such as a refutation of the gods. Kagrenac was devoted to his people, and the Dwarves, despite what you may have read, were a pious lot-he would not have sacrificed so many of their golden souls to create Anumidum's metal body if it were all in the name of grand theater. Kagrenac had even built the tools needed to construct a Mantella, the Crux of Transcendence. But, by then, and for a long time coming, the Doom of the Dwarves marched upon the Mountain and they were removed from this world.
The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. The Oversoul was known to the world as Tiber Septim They gave birth to their Mantella, this time an embodiment of the healing of the Man/Mer schism, and, with it, Anumidum Walked. But, by then, and for a long time coming, One betrayed the Other, and the world shuddered as they split, and the Anumidum went berserk and created an Empire of Evil to house the malignant half of its soul.
And what of the Warp in the West, where it is said six Anumiduma were seen in six different places at once, each one carving out a different mortal's destiny? We could see that High Rock is unified no more, that the flags of Nova Orsinium are real, that the Sload Priests talk to their new God of Worms, and none of them serve the sick heir of the Septim line; we could see all this and know that it is true. This Warp is but a realization of the trap that is the Gray Maybe, and that champion of release, the Brass God, has but reminded us again what the failure of his misuse means in the Arena Mundus.
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Obviously, there are references to the Anumidum and "The Warp in the West," but I will ignore them for now. I want to focus on something else: It appears that Talos and Zurin Arctus were literally linked together and known as the Enantiomorph. When they split (one half man, one half mer), chaos ensued.
Now I will add this to what I already believe: Talos is also known as Tiber Septim or the Dragonborn [I would assume that means "Born from Time" - B], but he is also refered to as Ysmir, and King Wulfharth is also refered to as Ysmir.
So basically, Talos=Tiber Septim=Ysmir=King Wulfharth=The_List_Goes_On. Therefore, this seems to make them all the same entity, or at least, part of the same entity.
But how you say? It is a mystery that may soon be solved. For now, I will leave it be. But first, could this be what Kier-Jo meant when he said "Tiber Septim was seen in more than one part of Tamriel at the same time and you are content?" I don't know.
Now, I want to look at King Wulfharth. Specifically, The Five Songs of King Wulfharth. Here is "Old Knocker," the third song:
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"The third song of King Wulfharth tells of his death. Orkey, an enemy god, had always tried to ruin the Nords, even in Atmora where he stole their years away. Seeing the strength of King Wulfharth, Orkey summoned the ghost of Alduin Time-Eater again. Nearly every Nord was eaten down to six years old. Boy Wulfharth pleaded to Shor, the dead Chieftain of the Gods, to help his people. Shor’s own ghost then fought the Time-Eater on the spirit plane, as he did at the beginning of time, and he won, and Orkey’s folk, the Orcs, were ruined. As Boy Wulfharth watched the battle in the sky he learned a new thu’um, What Happens When You Shake the Dragon Just So. He used this new magic to get his people back to normal. In his haste to save so many, though, he shook too many years out on himself. He grew older than the Greybeards, and died. The flames of his pyre were said to have reached the hearth of Kyne itself."
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I found additional information on Orkay and Alduin in Tamriel Gods: Skyrim/Nords.
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Orkay (Old Knocker)--A loan-god of the Nords, who seem to have taken up his worship during Aldmeri rule of Atmora. Nords believe they once lived as long as Elves until Orkey appeared; through heathen trickery, he fooled them into a bargain that 'bound them to the count of winters'. At one time, legends say, Nords only had a lifespan of six years due to Orkey's foul magic. Shor showed up, though, and, through unknown means, removed the curse, throwing most of it onto the nearby Orcs.
Alduin (World Eater)--Alduin is the Nordic variation of Akatosh, and only superficially resembles his counterpart in the Eight Divines. For example, Alduin's sobriquet, 'the world eater', comes from myths that depict him as the horrible, ravaging firestorm that destroyed the last world to begin this one. Nords therefore see the god of time as both creator and harbinger of the apocalypse. He is not the chief of the Nordic pantheon (in fact, that pantheon has no chief; see Shor, below) but its wellspring, albeit a grim and frightening one.
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So you see from the quote, "As Boy Wulfharth watched the battle in the sky he learned a new thu’um, What Happens When You Shake the Dragon Just So. He used this new magic to get his people back to normal," Wulfharth had learned to maniputate time. What's even more amazing, is that, even though King Wulfharth died in the process, he was later remade by Shor. More importantly, if I am correct in my assumption that this entity is known by many names, then he (for lack of a better term) keeps appearing over and over again in many different places and in many different times.
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Everyone, give B a round of applause for his great knowledge in lore! This is amazing stuff!
*chant*B,B,B,B!!!!!!!*/chant*
Great work!
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Thank you...I guess.
I do not profess that what I say is 100% reliable nor important to others. My words are merely my interpretations--sometimes valid, sometimes flawed. In fact, there are a lot of little things in this thread that I wish I could go back and edit. Oh well, whether my beliefs are correct or not, I love to learn.
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I agree. Very impressive scholarship. Even though I have nothing to add except ... is it possible to get a summary?
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An apparently important document.
Forum Cleanser!
It cleans, it disinfects, it's maniacal!
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Bumping to bring it to light in discussion of the Dragon Break, also in another thread.
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I haven't read this whole thread, I had to log off last night when I was reading it.. and I don't have the energy right now. But anyways, I was reading about the Khajiit saying that the confusion lasted for 1008 years, and that the others couldn't tell because they didn't have the Moon Sugar to tell. I don't know how this drug works, but normally drugs have a bad effect on your ability to tell time (like when you look at a wall for a couple of minutes when you're seriously plastered, then look up and 3 hours have passed). Obviously these drugs could function completely difficult, but I normally don't take the word of someone who's high.. As for the dancing on the tower and it splitting into 8 pieces. This was probably understood way before you even posted the message, seeing as how simple it is. But I thought I'd post that the tower would be what is supposed to be what keep the divines together, since a tower provides great sight and is hard to break.. *duh* And their dancing on the tower, could seem as that they 'danced' on the nerves of the divines turning them all against eachother, thus splitting eight seperate ways. I don't know if this makes sense or not, just a clueless post...
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True, but it seems to me that the Khajiit use the word Sugar to describe many things. I assume that "they didn't have the sugar to see it" would be more equivalent to "you don't have the balls".
Anyways, just because they're high doesn't mean they don't know something that others don't. Drugs oftentimes affect the temporal lobe, which affects one's perception of time. They also oftentimes facilitate one's ability to think abstractly... and I would describe time being broken as rather abstract.
So maybe they DO know what's going on because they were high on moon sugar.
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Where can I find this book? Is it in the game?
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There are actually two books.
Where Were You ... Dragon Broke can be found in the Balmora Mages guild among other places but that ones the easiest to get to.
And The Dragon Break Re-Examined can be found in that Ex Telvanni guy's house that lives in Gnisis.
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Oh yes, I had read the first one, but not the second. For now I'm stuck with a redoran quest (lost trader : it doesn't update my journal so there are no topics about it and no guy in Rothan tomb, very nice ;(().
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A fine example of a very important discussion!
Raptormeat
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Curate
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And their dancing on the tower, could seem as that they 'danced' on the nerves of the divines turning them all against eachother, thus splitting eight seperate ways. I don't know if this makes sense or not, just a clueless post...
Genius!!! Not in the way you meant it to be. When going to Ald Daedra I heard some Daedra worshippers say join the dance, but they were fighting. If I am correct, the world was broken into eight parts, and then reformed to make Nirn, yes?It did say they all saw the eight stars fall. And that couldn't be the Aedra because they aren't stars. "The blood of Anu became the stars. The blood of Padomay became the Daedra. Their mixed blood became the Aedra, thus their capacity to do both good and evil." Would the blood of Anu be the Old Ehlnofey? If so, they were the ones defeated in the war to break nirn. The dancing on the tower could be the fight that destroyed the Eight known worlds, and the Dragon Break could be the end of the mythic era, and the shift of power from mer to men.
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Professor: The only thing I don't like about those governments is that they want to give all of our taxes away to the less-fortunate.
Fry: Yeah! The less-fortunate get all the breaks!
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Xanathar
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Disciple
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...what's this? Another BUMP labeled button? I'm no touching... *click* Hey, who did that?
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~Xayah Ayem Neht
Librarian at The Imperial Library
Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
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That's okay, Xan, I hit the BUMP button, too.
I figured I'd dig this mess up again, even if the original links to the Library don't work anymore.
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Thanks for bringing it back up. Interesting stuff.
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Saruman123
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Initiate
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i wonder..... somebody mentioned a staff. Now i never played any other TES game but could the eight pieces refer to the staff of chaos?
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Member of the Forum Scholars Guild
Specialty: Vvardenfell Politics
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Bumpity bump.
This thread shed some light on a topic that's had my brain itching for quite a long time... the origin of Tiber Septim and Zurin Arctus, and why all of my own studies have indicated that they are, in fact, the same person, but could never explain how that could be possible.
Where did you find that interview that refers to Enantiomorph, B?
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In reply to:
Where did you find that interview that refers to Enantiomorph, B?
It is part of Skeleton Man's interview. Look for the response by Xal, a Human Maruhkati.
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Interesting.
I'd be curious to know if there are any other resources that refer to this "Enantiomorph." It's unclear if Xal is using the term as a formal name, or merely as a descriptor to demonstrate that they were two opposing halves of the same being. I did a pretty thorough search of all the literature to be found at the Imperial Library, as well as a general search of the web, and I couldn't turn up any other such references to Tiber and Zurin--other than Mannimarco's allusion above about Arctus being one of Wulfharth's/Pelinal's/Septim's incarnations.
Does anyone else know any more about this? There's another thread here in the forums that suggests that Septim/Wulf/Arctus are all aspects of Lorkhan, which I thought was pretty cool.
I must know... I'm losing sleep over this. 
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Please forgive my ignorance but could someone tell me what the Dragon Broke is?
Elladan
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In reply to:
Please forgive my ignorance but could someone tell me what the Dragon Broke is?
What the heck is the Dragon Break? There's a brief explanation in that thread, though the most comprehensive reply merely links back here. Be sure to read through this thread in its entirety, as there's a lot of stuff covered.
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drakkarDVG
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May I please try to extremely very briefly summarize?
The Dragon Break (or Broke) was a divergence in time in which Talos (known by too many other names) was seen in many places at once. Its been suggested that He could manipulate time in this thread. Oh, by "he" I mean Talos, Tiber Septim, blah blah, blah blah....
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Seen any elves?
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Hey, I just wanted to post a few things, and comment. This does have to do with the topic, so…
My belief is that Wulfarth is an incarnation of Lorkhan, or Shor, and that he has learned how to manipulate time, and has used his great powers to screw with the timeline for centuries. From the five songs of King Wulfarth:
“As Boy Wulfharth watched the battle in the sky he learned a new thu'um, What Happens When You Shake the Dragon Just So.”
“Then Wulfharth said: “Don't you see where you really are? Don't you know who Shor really is? Don't you know what this war is?” “
“Nerevar carried Keening, a dagger made of the sound of the shadow of the moons. His champions were Dumac Dwarfking, who carried a hammer of divine mass, and Alandro Sul, who was the immortal son of Azura and wore the Wraith Mail. They met Lorkhan at the last battle of Red Mountain. Lorkhan had his Heart again, but he had long been from it, and he needed time. Wulfharth met Sul but could not strike him, and he fell from grievous wounds, but not before shouting Sul blind. Dagoth-Ur met Dumac and slew him, but not before Sunder struck his lord's Heart. Nerevar turned away from Lorkhan and struck down Dagoth-Ur in rage, but he took a mortal wound from Lorkhan in turn. But Nerevar feigned the death that was coming early and so struck Lorkhan with surprise on his side. The Heart had been made solid by Sunder's tuning blow and Keening could now cut it out. And it was cut out and Lorkhan was defeated and the whole ordeal was thought over.”
I do not believe that Tiber Septim was Wulfarth, nor was he also an incarnation of Lorkhan. I believe that Zurin Arctus killed Septim, and imprsonated him for a time, and then the Underking killed him, then impersonated Septim.
Lastly, I think that the disappearance of the Dwemer was caused by the Underking.
Again:
“Then Wulfharth said: “Don't you see where you really are? Don't you know who Shor really is? Don't you know what this war is?” “
From Varieties of Faith:
“After the world is materialized, Lorkhan is separated from his divine center, sometimes involuntarily, and wanders the creation of the et'Ada. He and his metaphysical placement in the 'scheme of things' is interpreted a variety of ways. “
From Where were You when the Dragon Broke?:
“When will you wake up and realize what really happened to the Dwarves?”
“There are others on this earth that could, too: Ysmir, Pelinal, Arnand the Fox or should I say Arctus? The Last Dwarf would talk, if they would let him.”
What do you guys say? Am I crazy?
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Seen any elves?
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Although the dragon has been broken multiple times before, once by Tiber Septim, that should not lead you to false conclusions about his relation to the 'dragon'. Lets consider some of the udisputable facts. Akatosh is a dragon god. Time started when Akatosh was formed(Imperial library, history of tamriel). These are two links between akatosh and the dragon break: He is associated with dragon-ness and time. I propose that Akatosh acts as a metronome for Tamriel, that he is the motivating force behind the motion of time in this world. 'shaking the dragon just so', as in the tale of King Wulfarth, might allude to somehow stimulating akatosh, in prair or perhaps by spellcraft. Such activities would probably induce a change in the rythm or even-ness of time, as is documented in that tale. Breaking the dragon, on the other hand, would require a powerful ritual or spell to temporarily break Akatosh's hold on Tamriel. Because Akatosh is the motivating force behind the flow of time in Tamriel, a loosening of his hold on time would initiate a return to the normal status of Tamriel: Anu, or stasis. After all, Akatosh is one nof the Aedra. His powers center around creation and lean towards Sithis and the regular flow of time and change. Daedra are changeless creatures of Anu and are the yin to the Aedric yang. they are therefor perhaps capable of aiding any mortal creature who wished it in the loosening of the dragon's hold on Time. the mechanics implied by this model are actually quite easy to grasp, if one is prepared to accept them without prejudice.
Overview: Akatosh makes Tamriel tick, any disruption of his activity will affect time in the world as we know it.
Bow down before my superior logic!!
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PH34R 7H3 F14M3
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In reply to:
I do not believe that Tiber Septim was Wulfarth, nor was he also an incarnation of Lorkhan. I believe that Zurin Arctus killed Septim, and imprsonated him for a time, and then the Underking killed him, then impersonated Septim.
This is disputed by the presence of the old Legionairre, Wulf (clearly an allusion to Wulfharth), who you meet at the Tower of Dusk in Ghostgate as you're heading off to topple Dagoth Ur. Wulf is later revealed by the Oracle in Ebonheart to be an incarnation of the God-King Tiber Septim, which naturally leads one to conclude that Wulfharth and Tiber Septim are the same being.
There's also the matter of an interview with developer Michael Kirkbride, in which he reveals (in character) that Tiber Septim and Zurin Arctus were really two halves of something called the Enantiomorph, which I imagine is really just a descriptor; he/they are almost certainly the ghost of Lorkhan. Here's the segment of that interview to which I refer:
In reply to:
Xal, a Human Maruhkati, Port Telvanis:
"The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. The Oversoul was known to the world as Tiber Septim. They gave birth to their Mantella, this time an embodiment of the healing of the Man/Mer schism, and, with it, Anumidum Walked. But, by then, and for a long time coming, One betrayed the Other, and the world shuddered as they split, and the Anumidum went berserk and created an Empire of Evil to house the malignant half of its soul."
This is one of the only references I've ever been able to find that suggests this relationship between Tiber Septim and Zurin Arctus, but taking into consideration its source, I believe it to be canonical. There is also Mannimarco's comment in "Where Were You When the Dragon Broke?" regarding Wulfharth/Septim/Arctus that alludes to something similar...
In reply to:
Mannimarco, God of Worms, the Necromancers:
“The Three Thieves of Morrowind could tell you where they were. So could the High King of Alinor, who was the one who broke it in the first place. There are others on this earth that could, too: Ysmir, Pelinal, Arnand the Fox or should I say Arctus? The Last Dwarf would talk, if they would let him. As for myself, I was here and there and here again, like the rest of the mortals during the Dragon Break. How do you think I learned my mystery? The Maruhkati Selectives showed us all the glories of the Dawn so that we might learn, simply: as above, so below.”
I am a firm believer that Tiber Septim (and therefore Wulfharth) and Zurin Arctus were the same person, or at least two halves of the same person. I cannot explain how this is possible, however, without delving more into the nature of this Enantiomorph. Perhaps it's related to the two moons, or perhaps it's somehow related to the Dragon Break itself? I really can't say.
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It has nothing to do with the dragon break!! How could it, the dragon break most commonly associated with the underking/tiber septim/zurin arctus was orchestrated by way of Anumidium. Tiber septim was merely the motivating force behind the golem's activation. The dragon break that resulted affected him, not vice versa.
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In reply to:
It has nothing to do with the dragon break!! How could it, the dragon break most commonly associated with the underking/tiber septim/zurin arctus was orchestrated by way of Anumidium. Tiber septim was merely the motivating force behind the golem's activation. The dragon break that resulted affected him, not vice versa.
The Dragon Break did not occur as a result of Tiber Septim activating Numidium. A similar event may have (and likely did) occur when Numidium walked, much like the Warp in the West, but the Dragon Break refered to in this thread is associated with the "dancing" Marukhati Selective.
I don't claim to know for certain whether or not these various disruptions in time are explicitly connected to multiple instances of Tiber Septim, but I speculate that it might be. And without knowing more, that's all I can do--speculate. Can you unequivocally refute my theory without knowing better yourself?
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I WASNT TALKING ABOUT THAT DRAGON BREAK!!!!!
I WAS TALKING ABOUT THE ONE INVOLVING ANUMIDIUM!!!!!!
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PH34R 7H3 F14M3
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So wait, you are basicaly saying the Tiber septim has a Jekyl/hide type of relationship with other personas? Or are you saying that the dragon break somehow opened another dimension, and Tiber zurin and wulf are the same person just from different times/dimensions? The part about Tiber being Lorkhans ghost seemed a bit out in left field.
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Supreme nudist of the Naked Nord Society.
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the dragon break disrupted the normal flow of time, so from Tiber septim's point of view he was NOT in 8 places at once, it merely appeared that way because of the disrupted time flow.
for my big huge report on the subject, go to the forum scholars guild thread.
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PH34R 7H3 F14M3
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In reply to:
I WASNT TALKING ABOUT THAT DRAGON BREAK!!!!!
I WAS TALKING ABOUT THE ONE INVOLVING ANUMIDIUM!!!!!!
Whoah, dude! Calm yourself... it's okay.
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In reply to:
So wait, you are basicaly saying the Tiber septim has a Jekyl/hide type of relationship with other personas? Or are you saying that the dragon break somehow opened another dimension, and Tiber zurin and wulf are the same person just from different times/dimensions? The part about Tiber being Lorkhans ghost seemed a bit out in left field.
To be honest, I'm not quite sure myself.
There is significant evidence that Tiber Septim was one of the incarnations of the same "immortal hero, warrior, sorceror, and king variously known as Pelinal Whitestrake, Harrald Hairy Breeks, Ysmir, Hans the Fox, etc., that wanders Tamriel, gathering armies, conquering lands, ruling, then abandoning his kingdoms to wander again" (from the Imperial Library's history of Tamriel). It is known that both Tiber Septim and King Wulfharth were at one time known as Ysmir, and as you can read in my above post, I think it's abundantly clear that Wulf is Wulfharth is Ysmir is Tiber Septim, etc.
What I'm absolutely not clear on is Tiber's relation to Zurin Arctus (if there is any). Every piece of official history describes them as two entirely separate people, with only two exceptions: Michael Kirkbride's curious quote from his Skeleton Man interview, and Mannimarco's comments from the Dragon Break book. Any speculation on my part about Tiber and Zurin is really just grasping at straws, because I don't understand enough about them myself to offer anything concrete. One thing is for certain, however: a member of the Marukhati Selective (who initiated the Dragon Break in the first place) and the God of Worms wouldn't be alluding to something so enigmatic for no reason. Their comments are not mere coicidence.
As for Lorkhan's ghost... to hell with left field, I'm not even sure I'm in the ball park. It's just a hunch. And I'm not alone on that one.
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A few facts:
The Maruhkati sect "danced on the tower and the tower broke to eight pieces". As already said, the Tower could be the unity of the eight divines, and the Dancing could be the process in splitting them. But that dont explain the Dragon Break. How could the splitting of the Divines cause a Time error?
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An addition:
From where can we know that the persons who gave interviews in "Where were you when the Dragon Broke" told the truth? They can also are liars...
I think there is much speculation in topics like this.
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In reply to:
A few facts:
The Maruhkati sect "danced on the tower and the tower broke to eight pieces". As already said, the Tower could be the unity of the eight divines, and the Dancing could be the process in splitting them. But that dont explain the Dragon Break. How could the splitting of the Divines cause a Time error?
From "Where Were You When the Dragon Broke?":
In reply to:
Corax, Cyrodiil, Elder Council:
“No one understands what happened when the Selectives danced on that tower."
I respectfully, and without shame, include myself among "no one."
In reply to:
An addition:
From where can we know that the persons who gave interviews in "Where were you when the Dragon Broke" told the truth? They can also are liars...
I think there is much speculation in topics like this.
I agree that there is much speculation. In discussing a topic for which no one has the definitive answers, all anyone can do is speculate and hypothesize. It's the process of sharing ideas, however unlikely, that makes it fun.
As far as liars are concerned, you have to question the motive. Certainly there are those who stretch the truth, or even lie out-right, but there's always a reason. Remember that every testimony in "Where Were You..." was ultimately conceived by one man (MK). He's good at offering half-truths and contradicting himself (because that's what keeps it interesting--we have to keep guessing), but why would he allude to something as outlandish and irrelevant (to the Dragon Break, at any rate) as Zurin Arctus unless he were hinting at something?
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Vehk
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The illumined one is closest. I bless him with this string of power MOR GULGA AE CHIME. From my Book of Hours, concerning the Dragon Break:
"The middle dawn is an axis for the spirits of the Foretime. As such, many of the beliefs of the primitive psijiics cannot be discounted; here, in this place, are proofs within proofs…
“…Of special note is the Blue Star, which the Alesstics call ‘Mnemoli’, that runs through this part of the Aurbis every untime. The psijiics hold it in much reverence, and many of their folk make pilgrimages to Veloth when it appears because a mountain there catches fire at its passing. This mountain is reputed to be one of the last refuges of the Dwemer before they departed from this world…
“…and so to most , the middle dawn is little more than a undisputable and grandiose display of mystic power, which is to say nonsense, and few regard it as the numinous gateway that it really signifies. Like many things they cannot explain, the middle dawn is merely another excuse to declare good omens and portents, but unto you it should be known as the Hurling Disk, numbered seventeen…
“…according to the texts, Mnemoli is a wayward child of ANU, one of a pantheon of forgotten deities known as the ‘Star Orphans’… a tribe of gods and goddesses that apparently felt abandoned when the Sun Withdrew from the World-Making. Like many of her siblings, Mnemoli is both confused and delighted with the Aurbis, and explores its five quarters as best she can without the help and regulation of worship, which are not needed (by which I mean, always there) during breakings of the sideways wheel…
“…the Hurling Disk, it is conjectured, contains a strange mingling of magic from both the Solar and Lunar spheres. That singular rarity, coupled with the rarity of its presence within the world, has kept it from gaining a strong foothold in the schools of known sorcery. The Selectives claim a similar source of power in their depictions of the Right Reaching, but that has not deterred those magicians which still try to fathom the meaning of the middle dawn and what benefits they may derive from that understanding. Perhaps it is the association of Mnemoli with the vanishing of sequential sensation (and, by extension, the teeth-filled stare of the Alinor Dragon that comes thereafter) that drives seekers of arcane knowledge to pledge their scholarship to the Aetherius rather than dealing with the esoteric teachings of my murder-brother SEHT or her many aspects, who loves the secret tower so much that she trucks with folk that first gave it legs, head, and sexual recepticle…
“…one last note regarding the phenomenon of the middle dawn: it should be mentioned that at least one myth (‘The Blue Bone-Ring of Jyg’) suggests a relationship between Mnemolic sorcery and the Void Ghost Eaters, the magic practiced in the countless Trickster cults scattered throughout the Tamri-El.”
I give you this as Vivec.
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MK, is that you?
I will have to reread this latest post and search for some meaning.
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Edit: This latest message reminds me of one of your Sermons, Vehk. There are a lot of similarities.
The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec: Sermon Twenty-One
The Scripture of the Wheel, First:
'The Spokes are the eight components of chaos, as yet solidified by the law of time: static change, if you will, something the lizard gods refer to as the Striking. That is the reptile wheel, coiled potential, ever-preamble to the never-action.'
Second:
'They are the lent bones of the Aedra, the Eight gift-limbs to SITHISIT, the wet earth of the new star our home. Outside them is the Aurbis, and not within. Like most things inexplicable, it is a circle. Circles are confused serpents, striking and striking and never given leave to bite. The Aedra would have you believe different, but they were givers before liars. Lies have turned them into biters. Their teeth are the proselytizers; to convert is to place oneself in the mouth of falsehood; even to propitiate is to be swallowed. '
Third:
'The enlightened are those uneaten by the world.'
Fourth:
'The spaces between the gift-limbs number sixteen, the signal shapes of the Demon Princedoms. It is the key and the lock, series and manticore.'
Fifth:
'Look at the majesty sideways and all you see is the Tower, which our ancestors made idols from. Look at its center and all you see is the begotten hole, second serpent, womb-ready for the Right Reaching, exact and without enchantment.'
Sixth:
'The heart of the second serpent holds the secret triangular gate.'
Seventh:
'Look at the secret triangular gate sideways and you see the secret Tower.'
Eighth:
'The secret Tower within the Tower is the shape of the only name of God, I.'
The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
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Edited by B (06/08/03 12:13 PM)
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Interesting.
"(‘The Blue Bone-Ring of Jyg’)"
AG: Could this refer to that mysterious Daedra penned by Morian Zenas? Yet another question to add to the bank when I have a chance to speak with him!
"…Of special note is the Blue Star, which the Alesstics call ‘Mnemoli’, that runs through this part of the Aurbis every untime. The psijiics hold it in much reverence, and many of their folk make pilgrimages to Veloth when it appears because a mountain there catches fire at its passing. This mountain is reputed to be one of the last refuges of the Dwemer before they departed from this world…"
AG: This seems especially relevant, as certainly the Dwemer would have known of this 'Star', and to mention that it has a particular 'sorcery' about it which I do not and cannot understand at this time, suggests to me that this has something to do with they're dissappearance. Perhaps this star is the key factor in why the Dwemer dissappeared, but those that used the heart afterwards did not or could not.
"my murder-brother SEHT or her many aspects, who loves the secret tower so much that she trucks with folk that first gave it legs, head, and sexual recepticle…"
AG: Does this refer to Sotha Sil? If so perhaps we know less about 'her' than we think we do.
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Nigedo
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The pendulum swings... Anu... Padomay... Anu... Padomay... Stasis and Change and Stasis and Change
and the serpent chews its tail as time passes.
I need a break - no pun intended, honest!
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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I will be very interested to see what some of you forum scholars have to say in response to Lord Vivec's presence in this thread (that's your cue, B ), but in the meantime, here are my immediate thoughts. Some of this will be rather obvious, but it helps me to better understand it myself in putting it down on paper (well, so to speak).
In reply to:
“…according to the texts, Mnemoli is a wayward child of ANU, one of a pantheon of forgotten deities known as the ‘Star Orphans’… a tribe of gods and goddesses that apparently felt abandoned when the Sun Withdrew from the World-Making. Like many of her siblings, Mnemoli is both confused and delighted with the Aurbis, and explores its five quarters as best she can without the help and regulation of worship, which are not needed (by which I mean, always there) during breakings of the sideways wheel…
The blood of Anu became the stars, the blood of Padomay became the Daedra, and the mingled blood of Anu and Padomay became the Aedra. This seems to suggest, then, that there exists a previously-unknown pantheon entirely separate from the deities that all Tamriel folk are familiar with. Two questions come to mind: what role did this Mnemoli play in the Dragon Break, and what role did The Blue Star play in the disappearance of the Dwarves?
In reply to:
“…Of special note is the Blue Star, which the Alesstics call ‘Mnemoli’, that runs through this part of the Aurbis every untime. The psijiics hold it in much reverence, and many of their folk make pilgrimages to Veloth when it appears because a mountain there catches fire at its passing. This mountain is reputed to be one of the last refuges of the Dwemer before they departed from this world…
I believe Alastor definitely has his sights set in the right direction. According to this passge from Vivec's Book of Hours, the "mountain catches fire at [Mnemoli's] passing." My memory of the matter is hazy at best, but didn't Red Mountain erupt shortly after the great Battle of its namesake?
I also find interesting the "association of Mnemoli with the vanishing of sequential sensation (and, by extension, the teeth-filled stare of the Alinor Dragon that comes thereafter)," which seems to relate the Blue Star to the Dragon Break.
There are two more things that jump out at me: firstly, towards the end, Vehk refers to his "murder-brother SEHT," which I assume, like Alastor, to be either Sotha Sil or Almalexia. The term "murder-brother" is curious, however. Could this be further evidence that ALMSIVI did, in fact, kill Nerevar? And secondly, we have "MOR GULGA AE CHIME." I have no idea what that is supposed to mean, but I've seen something similar before.
In reply to:
"Go unto the Sharmat Dagoth Ur as a friend.
AE HERMA MORA ALTADOON PADHOME LKHAN AE AI."
From Sithis.
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On the subject of the dragon break involving the selectives, it must have to do with destroying the untiy of the Aedra(as was earlier suggested) and I think I can explain waht followed, In the chaos Akatosh must have 'lost track of time', he stopped regulating tamriel as he normally does. that would, under my theory, cause a dragon break.
[edit]
This is interesting! I just read that passage about Mnelolli or whatever it was in detail, and it occurs to me that the dwemer, being in posession of a large observatory, might have predicted it's arrival and utilized it's power for Kagrenac's experimentation! more to come, I will post an ammended report in the FSG thread.
[edit]
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researcher/philosopher/adventurer
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PH34R 7H3 F14M3
Edited by Yun Yammka (06/10/03 04:06 AM)
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Since Tiber and some other are tied in with the dragon break, and since they seem to be part of the Enantiomorph, what is the enantiomorphs purpose? If I understand this correctly(probably not) this enantiomorph becomes different people((Zurin,Tiber,Wulf) and affects history in different ways. Is it trying to set something up? From what I have rad it seems like it becomes a person and then does something important only to dissapear. I can't figure out what it might be trying to do but maybe the actions of certain people associated with the enantiomorph add up to something?
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Supreme nudist of the Naked Nord Society.
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In reply to:
I also find interesting the "association of Mnemoli with the vanishing of sequential sensation (and, by extension, the teeth-filled stare of the Alinor Dragon that comes thereafter)," which seems to relate the Blue Star to the Dragon Break.
FnOrd you are on the right track, or at least the same track as I am with this new information. Something else that has come to my attention: Vehk calls Seht his 'Murder-Brother', but then proceeds to refer to 'him' as a 'she'. Why?
Further I would like to gather some info on this Mnemolic sorcery, and also the 'Void-Ghost Eaters', which if I may speculate a bit, seems to refer to the Daedra(Void-Ghosts) and eating them(or consuming thier power). Not much to go on however.
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A poster way earlier in this thread mentioned that a staff was mentioned which might be the staff of Chaos. This staff was divided into eight parts like the tower.
It is also of note that the staff has time altering abilities. Tharn used the staff to seal the Emporer in another dimension where time flows differently in order to take his throne without the amulet of kings allerting the Elder Council.
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Nigedo
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For those that haven't noticed and are interested, this most imortant discussion is continued in the thread "The Thief goes to Cyrodiil" with teachings provided by Vehk.
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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Now that I've figured out how to do this, here is a link to the thread mentioned above;
"The Thief Goes To Cyrodil"
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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Just wondering, (Ive been out of touch) can someone tell me who this Menmoli character is? Specifically, where did he exist and is there any data available on where his writings might have survived longest?
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TSBasilisk
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You did realize this thread hasn't been posted in for ten months, right?
Mnemoli is one of the et'Ada, I believe, who withdrew from the creation of Mundus when Magnus fled. Appearing as a blue star, Mnemoli is said to explore Aurbis, uncaring of what mortals think. The appearance of the star causes Red Mountain to erupt.
This, of course, is solely from Vivec's Book of Hours, so the reliability of the information is quesitonable.
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Member of the Forum Scholars Guild
Member of Greater Dwemer Ruins, Modder in charge of Nchuleft
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treechopper
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To transcend the Mundus, one must learn the Daedra's trick of how to be part of the Mundus without also accepting its limits
Does limits mean Time?????
Could be there is even a theory that time doesnt exist.
It would only be something our mind ads because otherwide everything happens at the same time. Now say this is true and this barrier was broken by the shattering somehow ....
Would explain this. ( Theory in real life btw from Kant )
Daedra seem not to be touched by this wich could mean they are outside of it permantly, Wouldn explain ALMSIVI and others though.
Now the line, "'There are others on this earth that could, too: Ysmir, Pelinal, Hans the Fox (but, then, this is really my warning to you, Arctus; I now know who you are).'" According to The Imperial Library, during the Merethic Era, "An immortal hero, warrior, sorceror, and king variously known as Pelinal Whitestrake, Harrald Hairy Breeks, Ysmir, Hans the Fox, etc., wanders Tamriel, gathering armies, conquering lands, ruling, then abandoning his kingdoms to wander again" (see Merethic Era). It appears that Mannimarco, The God of Worms, is claiming that the immortal hero from the Merethic and early First Era , known by many names, is also Zurin Arctus (Tiber Septim's Battlemage and The Underking). Agree or disagree?
This would mean that the underking wasnt effected either, btw i doubt he really died in Daggerfall why would they otherwise start with a qoute of his in morrowind.
So basically, Talos=Tiber Septim=Ysmir=King Wulfharth=The_List_Goes_On. Therefore, this seems to make them all the same entity, or at least, part of the same entity.
If Wulfharth learned to control time and was recreated after he died by this god. And he is Tiber it would make clear how he became semi- immortal and as such a god. He can rejunivate always and jump true time. This would also mean he aint bound to the limits that the aedra gave to themself. So this would mean he is more a daedra then a aedra i gess  . help me out!
But if you think tiber is lorkhan like some peoplhe her do . His hearth would be bound to this time jump thing. As the dwemer tapped in his hearth as first in many years i think they created there personal dragons beak and were placed outside time. The only dwarf left (coprosarium) was at another plane at that time this happened (he said). so he wouldnt have been effected.
ALMSIVI used the hearth and obtained something like this too so they werent effected during dragons break. As thieves stands for the power that wasnt supposed to be theirs. I gess this would count for dagoth too buth he slepped all the way true.
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Guns don't kill people.
I DO!!
(warcraft 3, some very od dwarf  )
Edited by treechopper (04/28/04 07:17 AM)
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They started Arena with a quote from Gaiden Shinji, and he was long dead by the time Arena took place.
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treechopper
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I believe Tiber and Arctus (being underking in my view) are two halves of the same being. One cant live or die without the other. (Like in LOTR Sauron endures as long as its ring endures)
The underking felt this was a permanent lock up since both he and tiber could travel time. He tried to find a way to take tiber with him in Daggerfall. Since Wulf in morrowind is tiber he didint succeed and i think that even the power he used in DF wasnt enough.
My theory others can disagree reply plz
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Guns don't kill people.
I DO!!
(warcraft 3, some very od dwarf )
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sry to bother you guys, i wanted to put this in my favorites, please continue.
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I don't quite agree with your theories, but I thank you for bringing this old thread up for those of us who are new here... It is all very interesting.. I had forgotten Skeleton Man's interview completely, it opens up some new views into certain things (Ysmir/Arctus/Underking has puzzled me) and Vehk's views on things are much clearer when you can see the thoughts of those who heard them first...
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Re: The Dragon Break: Section Three
Spokes and Towers
