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I have created an Index cataloging the Dwemer Syllables. It is located at
http://hometown.aol.com/aquiantus/DwemerIndex.html
The purpose of this is to organize it so that others (myself included) will have a reference to what symbols are what.
I would like other Scholars to come on in and let me know what symbols you think are what. For instance I have a few ? marks underneath some that I couldn't place under the 27 symbols I found in the Egg of Time/Metaphysics.
Lets discuss what you think the symbols mean, are some of the symbols on the wall/pipe Daedric? Could the R letter in Daedric be the last letter in the Dwemer Pipe? Is there a Hidden 'e' symbol on the door to Lorkhan's heart?
Discuss your thoughts here.
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One person at the Morrowind Summit Forums claimed to have translated the Dwemer writings. He said that the language itself, when spelled out, was a mixture of German and English. As a result, it is entirely possible that those symbols are accented letters or other letters unique to the German language. They may also be merged sounds, such as the soft sound of "th".
PS: He also claimed that the beginning of Egg of Time was O, Bthuand's. Don't know if he was telling the truth or not.
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Edited by TSBasilisk (09/27/03 12:45 AM)
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Its entirely possible, I wouldn't rule anything out hehe, its got me stumped in some parts. Are there other things with dwemer writings on it? I only have found Egg/Meta the pipes/walls and Lorkhan Door.
Here's an Interesting article on Dwemers. It shows the 2 books, the door and pipe with Dwemer Language on it. It also has some other useful information for those interested
http://www.rpgplanet.com/morrowind/chalice/corner/dwemer.shtml
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Very well done for presenting these so clearly Aquiantus. 
Members of the Whirling School have studied these apparently cryptographic texts at length and, to date, we have unfortunately found them indecipherable.
The word structures found in Egg Of Time and Divine Metaphysics have not yielded to intensive substitution analysis.
In the course of this study, we have made the following observations:
- Identical phrases of text (specifically ordered groups of characters and spaces), several lines in length, appear on both the first and second pages in different positions of both books.
- At first there appear to be too many instances of single letter 'words' and spaces frequently occur at the start of new lines of text. We conclude that words may not terminate simply at the end of lines but rather, may be continuous until a specific space is reached. In fact, the apparent spacing of 'words' may not be an indication of substituted word and sentence structure at all.
- The seven characters that occur most frequently in the texts, in order of highest frequency to lowest, are;
[X15], [X5], [X25], [X16], [X14], [X10], [X4]
- The character [X26] has the lowest occurence and may be a form of punctuation.
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Quote:
PS: He also claimed that the beginning of Egg of Time was O, Bthuand's. Don't know if he was telling the truth or not.
This is true and Baladas Demnevanni confirms this as well. Unless Baladas is wrong that is...
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Very well done for presenting these so clearly Aquiantus.
Members of the Whirling School have studied these apparently cryptographic texts at length and, to date, we have unfortunately found them indecipherable.
The word structures found in Egg Of Time and Divine Metaphysics have not yielded to intensive substitution analysis.
In the course of this study, we have made the following observations:
- Identical phrases of text (specifically ordered groups of characters and spaces), several lines in length, appear on both the first and second pages in different positions of both books.
- At first there appear to be too many instances of single letter 'words' and spaces frequently occur at the start of new lines of text. We conclude that words may not terminate simply at the end of lines but rather, may be continuous until a specific space is reached. In fact, the apparent spacing of 'words' may not be an indication of substituted word and sentence structure at all.
- The seven characters that occur most frequently in the texts, in order of highest frequency to lowest, are;
[X15], [X5], [X25], [X16], [X14], [X10], [X4]
- The character [X26] has the lowest occurence and may be a form of punctuation.
Thanks for that wonderful response. I've been giving it some thought and have decided that perhaps there are numbers in the books or that some symbols would mean a two letter word that could be used as a double meaning like On and No if used reversed like you see with the two slanted L's.
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If you look closely at some diagrams, such as the Centurion plans, you can see Dwemer writing. Specifically, it is the plan that depicts a steam centurion in gold. Written in small letters surrounding it are Dwemer comments and notes.
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Mr. Basilisk, do you have a link to the thread? Searching for Bthuand only turned up a few things, none of them translations.
This is a little disjointed; hopefully it can be of some help to someone.
Nigedo: The seven characters that occur most frequently in the texts, in order of highest frequency to lowest, are; [X15], [X5], [X25], [X16], [X14], [X10], [X4]
In the Dwemer ruin names and the names I list below, the most common letter groupings seem to be (in no particular order): nch, mz, left, ngth, bth, nch. Nd appears fairly frequently, too. Ark appears twice, though rk appears more frequently, and given that the most common are mostly made up of consonants, I'd think that "rk" is a more likely character.
Also, from Chimarvamidium (please don't string me up for referencing an Ancient Tales of the Dwemer book, but it is one of the stories that can be traced back to the Dwemer), it mentions that "Chimarvamidium" may be the Dwemer "Nchmarthurnidamz." This word occurs several times in plans of Dwemer armor and Animunculi, but it's meaning is not known.
We also have some Dwemer names and places from Morrowind books (not all of which can be trusted, of course): Kagrenac, Dumac, Kherakah (actually a Dwemeri settlement), Nchunak, Anchard, Rkungthunch, Dalen-Zanchu, Ihlendam, Bluthanch, Hendor-Stardumz (a settlement), Chinzinch Pass, Leftunch (a tomb, possibly).
Nael: This [the beginning of The Egg of Time is "O, Bthuand's"] is true and Baladas Demnevanni confirms this as well.
It almost fits what I see as the most common combinations: "O _ Bth u a nd s _ ? ?" - characters X 27, 14, 8, 15, 21, 19, with the underscore being 26. The first ? is X5; the second is X18.
X15 (one of the most common characters) is up there, and X26 does appear where punctuation is purported to be.
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It almost fits what I see as the most common combinations: "O _ Bth u a nd s _ ? ?" - characters X 27, 14, 8, 15, 21, 19, with the underscore being 26. The first ? is X5; the second is X18.
X15 (one of the most common characters) is up there, and X26 does appear where punctuation is purported to be.
Perhaps X5 and X18 might be initials or perhaps just one initial and then the period. There are 27 characters and only 26 for the English alpha. However maybe only 25 characters are used and their are both a , and a . Maybe even a number. <Ponders many thoughts>
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Ok here is a numerical look at the First Page of the Egg of Time. The numbers to the right correspond to the number in the word before there is a space.
Egg of Time page 1
X27X26X14X8X15X21X16X26X5X18 X16 X10X11 X20X14X01 #10(1,5,2);1;2;3
X13X01X26X12X27X19X05X11X16 X06 X13X07X19X27X09X06 #9;1;6
X10X18X5X14X20X22 X05X15X03X13X23X20X16X22X17 X25 #6;9;1
X16X04X24X10 X24X25X17X13X22X07 X06X18X27X08X21 X02 #4;6;5;1
X02X05X15X12 X15X02X22 X15 X02 X09X03X10X22 X15 #4;3;1;1;4;1
X01X07 X25X01X07X25X20 X25X05X02X17X25 X02X07 #2;5;5;2
X22X12 X20X25X05X23X21X14 X08X19X14X23X4 X21X17 #2;6;5;2
X08X10X11X19X04X13 X17X21 X01X24X04X12 X13X24X11 #6;2;4;3
X08X06X25 X14X24X04X15X06X15 X25X16X17 X22X10X05X04 #3;6;3;4
X17X19X09X14X15 X11X05 X09X15X25X16X08X14X19X23 #5;2;8
X23X14X05X26X25X27X06X10 X14X04X13X10 X05X12X06X27 #8;4;4
X01X24X04X12 X13X24X11X14X24X04X15X06X15 X25X16X17 #4;9;3
X03 X16X09X02X03X10 X05X03 X22 X15X16X20 #1;5;2;1;3
X15X25X09X16X07 X23X03X12X14X04 X21X10X24X17X13X18 #5;5;5
Number of times it was used
X01 - 6
X02 - 7*
X03 - 5*
X04 - 9
X05 - 10
X06 - 8*
X07 - 6
X08 - 5
X09 - 6
X10 - 10
X11 - 6
X12 - 7
X13 - 9
X14 - 12
X15 - 14*
X16 - 11*
X17 - 9
X18 - 4
X19 - 6
X20 - 6
X21 - 6
X22 - 8*
X23 - 6
X24 - 9
X25 - 13*
X26 - 4
X27 - 6
Noter: * means used as one letter word
X15 could very well be the Letter A. It could be as Vireyar suggested. It sure is used alot and its also used as one word.
Also this 9 letter word is very interesting
X13X24X11X14X24X04X15X06X15
It has two X24s (2nd,5th spot) and two X15s (7th,9th spot)
Aswell as these two 5 letter words from the 6th line down.
X25X01X07X25X20 X25X05X02X17X25
It has two x25 (1st,4th spot) for the first word, and two x25(1st,5th) for the last word.
I also wanna mention really quick, I've noticed alot of U's in the Dwemer words. Perhaps that might be one of the more higher used letters.
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Sorry if this took a while, but the Morrowind Summit lacks an effective search engine. They should rebuild the thing. 
http://www.forumplanet.com/RPGPlanet/morrowind/topic.asp?fid=3410&tid=1058599
That's the thread. However, the poster's profile has been deleted. And the message about the first words of Egg of Time were in a PM that got deleted. 
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Ok took the Bthuand theory and applied it to get this
O'BTHUAND'S. D __ _BTH_
__'_O_S_D _ ___O__
_.SBTH__ SA____D__ _
D___ ______ _.O_N _
_SA_ A__ A _ ____ A
__ _____ _S___ __
__ __S_NBTH __BTH__ N_
______ _N ____ ___
___ BTH__A_A _D_ __S_
___BTHA _S _A_D_BTH__
_BTHS'_O__ BTH___ S__O
____ ___BTH__A_A _D_
_ D____ S_ _ AD_
A__D_ ___BTH_ N____.
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Quote:
If you look closely at some diagrams, such as the Centurion plans, you can see Dwemer writing. Specifically, it is the plan that depicts a steam centurion in gold. Written in small letters surrounding it are Dwemer comments and notes.
I'll definitly take a look at that. Also, if someone has seen the picture on this webpage
http://www.rpgplanet.com/morrowind/chalice/corner/dwemer.shtml
It has two dwarves in white, one of them looks like they may have dwemer written just above their waist line. Anyone know a bigger picture of that?
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Ok the pipe if you look at it might very well be
Karndar
The two z's would be A's and the last R written is in Daedric while the x9 would be Dwemer R. It seems to me that it has a mix of Altmer/Daedric mixed in with the Dwemer.
This is just a guess though.
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Hmm would the Dwemer use Daedric?
Since the Dwemer were much of anti Daedric
But still....they could use it as a way of mockery to the Daedra....
Curse it!
Bethesda should release the Hanging Gardens in Aldmer/Dwemer Font
EDIT
Also -Redguard (the game) did have a book with Dwemer font and translations
But using it might be useless since Stros M'kai is far away from Morrowind and the Dwemer at Stros M'kai might have gone in different culture (but still they did have the good old Sphre Centourions and one damm huge Steam Centourion)
Yes looking at the time line could the Dwemer of Stros M'kai be the infamous Rourken Clan?
Also the ruins under Mournhold
They are quite different style
I cant recall if any writings are to be found there
Edited by Crushot (09/28/03 08:48 AM)
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Hmm would the Dwemer use Daedric?
Since the Dwemer were much of anti Daedric
But still....they could use it as a way of mockery to the Daedra....
Curse it!
Bethesda should release the Hanging Gardens in Aldmer/Dwemer Font
EDIT
Also -Redguard (the game) did have a book with Dwemer font and translations
But using it might be useless since Stros M'kai is far away from Morrowind and the Dwemer at Stros M'kai might have gone in different culture (but still they did have the good old Sphre Centourions and one damm huge Steam Centourion)
Yes looking at the time line could the Dwemer of Stros M'kai be the infamous Rourken Clan?
Also the ruins under Mournhold
They are quite different style
I cant recall if any writings are to be found there
That would be great if that book existed. But, I'm pretty sure it was a different language. The devs say none have translated the Dwemer yet, and that they won't release it just yet. But, then again I could be wrong, someone who has Redgaurd wanna take alook and see if they can match up some symbols?
Your probably right about the Daedric, it could be an Altmeri R or something. Just don't know, some of the symbols on the pipe and lorkhan door just don't match up to whats in the Egg and Meta books. I think I have only matched up a few of the symbols on those to actual letters in my index. Like the L is very close to L in Egg/Meta books but that R, got me stumped, and the last two letters on the pipe.
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I just tried the Demo, you can find in the first post on the Past Games forum.
But when I tried to play it, it says I don't have 3dfx driver to play it so I couldn't take alook. Which propably means my SiS650 onboard was built after Redgaurd was, so probably incompatible.
However, did alittle reseach found here
http://www.cheatcc.com/pc/sg/elder_scrolls_redguard.txt
and this is what I came up with
"The Dwarven Ruins
Buy the book about Dwarven Artifacts from the bookstore. Climb up the
mountains and kill some guards. When you get to the door, go into the cave
behind it, and kill another guard. By the dwarven crossbow is anothe door.
Open the door by translating the words with your dwarven book. Inside you
will find two dead guards, don't walk on the pressure plates, or you will end
up just like them."
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This looks great. Keep up the good work!
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Ok thanks to everyone here, I have come across the most important discovery to the Dwemer Language.
The language in Redgaurd is the same, I have come across the Observatory with Each of the signs of the constellations. There is a Dwemer Symbol for each of them. I can't take screen shots cause it runs in DOS, but I will try to do my best to list the symbols in the Observatory. Note: If someone knows how to take screenies in Redgaurd let me know plz
Note that there is just one symbol underneath a giant tapestry of a certain Constellation. Rather or not that symbol is an entire word is still a question. I will post them soon so stay tuned for that.
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There is this picture from the UESP:
http://www.m0use.net/~uesp/redguard/quest/images/starmap1.gif
The aqua coloured runes are the major constellations (Warrior, Mage, Thief), and the yellow are the minor ones. Perhaps it will help. 
-Striker
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That's very impressive. The runes *are* the same.
Can someone who has visited this observatory please tell us all whether there may be an index to these constellations' positions?
Can any of the runes be interpreted at all, by knowing which constellations they relate to in the chart?
 EDIT: Right, I've just been looking at 'The Rosetta Stone' section (Info and Sights/The Rosetta Stone/Serpent Constellation) on The Essential Site and I see that Cyrus the Redguard had to operate a Dwemer observatory to complete a task at some time or another.
Anyway, the positions of the runes are marked on the astral chart, that Striker posted, on the ceiling of the observatory (yes?) and I believe that each runic symbol corresponds to an image directly beneath it on the wall of the observatory (which I suspect rotates).
The wall images appear to be the same as those displayed on the wall hangings found in the Hearthfire Hall at Bamz-Amschend, only the Stros M'Kai versions seem a great deal clearer. Here is a link to a useful discussion about the constellations represented by these images.
So what we need is for someone to drop in to the observatory at Stros M'Kai and let us know which image links to which rune.
Anyone? 
I would also *love* to know what the 'Book On Dwarven Lore' contains?
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Ok here is my first guess, I have only looked at the Wall paintings to try and determine what Constellation they are.
The Major ones were easy. They each had a light blue underneath them, just like the chart has.
Majors - Accuracy 100%
Warrior - X17 (Sword and Shield in hand)
Mage - X10 (Has a staff in hands)
Thief - X14 (Has keys in his hands)
These I feel confident are what they are - Accuracy 80%
Lady - X4 (This one does not reveal lower private parts)
Lover - X7 (This one is mostly covered up - shows small area below the belt
Shadow - X5 (looks like a shadow creature)
Tower - X6 (looks like a tall tower)
These have minor clues in them - Accuracy 50%
Steed - X9 (Has a hoof like a horse - used to determine its steed)
Apprentice - X16 (Has symbols all over his robes, has two halo's one around his head and around his knees - this could be ritual maybe)
Golem - X13 (Looks like a golem, has three fingers per hand)
Had no clue - best intuative guess - Accuracy 10%
Ritual - X22 (Scarab with like 8 legs - don't know what constellation has a scarab as its sign, but this is my closest guess, note: ritual was only one left so it was the only basis for me to place as Ritual)
Lord - X15 (This is truely a weird painting, looks like a huge foot supporting a crystal ball with two people on the right and left of a person who looks like they have a crown on their head)
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Some of the wall paintings in Redgaurd are exactly like the tapestries in Morrowind. I'll be searching for those and post those as soon as I find them.
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Ok skip the tapestries. If you have Tribunal check these out. Same as the pictures in the Redgaurd game except for its missing one.
Golem - in_dwe_slate00 (has three fingers though cut off in tribunal picture, looks like a golem)
Lover - in_dwe_slate01 (look closely at lower extremities, she is showing it off)
Apprentice - in_dwe_state02 ( looks like one, could perhaps be ritual)
Lady - in_dwe_slate03 (because other one is the Lover)
Mage - in_dwe_state04 (because in Redguard it had a light blue sybol underneath it, and it was holding a staff. Though it looks like the tribunal picture has the staff cut off)
Shadow - in_dwe_state05 (looks like one)
Scarab(Ritual) - in_dwe_state07 (boogles my mind)
Thief - in_dwe_state08 (hands are cut off from the painting but this is definitly the thief - has keys in both hands)
Tower - in_dwe_state09 (looks like one)
Steed - in_dwe_state10 (Hoof at bottom of picture)
Warrior - in_dwe_state11 (100% accurate here)
Although I can not show you the funky picture of the Lord that I guessed earlier there is a Slate for the Snake/Serpent sign - in_dwe_state06 (If you look closely at it in the light, the bottom portion is exactly a snakes head)
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Made this little website so you can see what Sign is has the Dwemer Sign underneath it.
Unfortunatly I could not find one of the pictures in the Morrowind game yet. So no luck there, its a very puzzling one I might add.
Take a look here.
http://hometown.aol.com/wizrdaegis/myhomepage/DwemerSigns.html
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Quote:
That's very impressive. The runes *are* the same.
Can someone who has visited this observatory please tell us all whether there may be an index to these constellations' positions?
Can any of the runes be interpreted at all, by knowing which constellations they relate to in the chart?
EDIT: Right, I've just been looking at 'The Rosetta Stone' section (Info and Sights/The Rosetta Stone/Fix the Observatory) on The Essential Site and I see that Cyrus the Redguard had to operate a Dwemer observatory to complete a task at some time or another.
Anyway, the positions of the runes are marked on the astral chart, that Striker posted, on the ceiling of the observatory (yes?) and I believe that each runic symbol corresponds to an image directly beneath it on the wall of the observatory (which I suspect rotates).
The wall images appear to be the same as those displayed on the wall hangings found in the Hearthfire Hall at Bamz-Amschend, only the Stros M'Kai versions seem a great deal clearer. Here is a link to a useful discussion about the constellations represented by these images.
So what we need is for someone to drop in to the observatory at Stros M'Kai and let us know which image links to which rune.
Anyone?
I would also *love* to know what the 'Book On Dwarven Lore' contains?
My brother had a copy of the game. So I'm playing it on his old computer, mine won't work with it cause its XP (won't allow hard disk to be shared or something like that). But at the Essential Site, if you look at the picture with the Constellation Signs on the wall, you will notice a little plague underneath each Signs Tapestry. Thats where I got the Dwemer Symbols for each Constellation Sign.
The book is very odd, It does have symbols in it, just the graphics make it hard very very hard to read. For each symbol there is a small paragraph describing it. The paragraph is actual words, if someone has an older Vodoo card, they might be able to actually read whats in this book. I can barely make it out on the other computer. Though I might try it, I actually made out 1-2 words in the Firmament when I rotated the book a certain way.
I haven't finished fixing the observatory and haven't been to the dwarven ruins yet. I'll post what the book does and maybe more information after i've completed fixing the Observatory.
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There is so much that may be learned from the observatory at Stros M'Kai and the books that Cyrus must refer to that I am amazed that there have been no better attempts to catalogue this information before now.
I have examined the available pictures and they only offer a tantalising glimpse of what may be studied.
 I must hope and appeal for someone to compile a complete survey of the observatory, with pictures of all of its wall hangings, charts and symbols, noting the positions in which they all occur, and publish their findings soon.
If it is at all possible, the books that Cyrus must refer to should be published in their original entirety as well.
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Aquiantus,
I referred only to your last post when I replied above and I have only just seen the other excellent work you have done.
Thank you so much for cataloguing the Dwemer slates from Bamz-Amschend.
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Quote:
Ritual - X22 (Scarab with like 8 legs - don't know what constellation has a scarab as its sign, but this is my closest guess, note: ritual was only one left so it was the only basis for me to place as Ritual)
Quote:
Scarab(Ritual) - in_dwe_state07 (boogles my mind)
The Scarab is the Dwemeri symbol to represent Lorkhan, refer to The Definitive Guide to Dwemer at Aldrien's Chalice.
As such, some have conjectured that it is also used to represent the 'Ritual' constellation, since the highest form of Dwemeri ritual centred upon the use of Lorkhan's Heart.
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hehe Ok I found the one I call the Lord but its puny tiny. Its in the link you just provided. I'll update the website so you all and squint your eyes at it.
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I believe that I have been able to derive the meanings of the constellational symbols and images.
Using the constellational chart on UESP, I have cross-referenced the position of the symbols with the known order of the constellations' seasons as described in 'The Firmament'.
(Also see The Elder Scrolls Calendar.)
My reasoning is that 'The Firmament' tells us the month for each constellation, when the sun ascends in its part of the sky, and thereby we can know the relative positions of the constellations.
Based upon this (and providing that the Dwemer recognised the same constellations ), the images and runic symbols within the observatory at Stros M'Kai must occur in the same order as the constellations are described in 'The Firmament' and we can therefore interpret their meaning by their positions as they appear on the star chart.
This then led me to compare my results with Aquiantus' research linking the slates from Bamz-Amschend to the symbols that he has recorded from the Stros M'Kai observatory walls and floor.
Here are the combined results:-
Code:
Pos Month Constellation Rune Slate
9 Morning Star Ritual (M) X15 -
10 Sun's Dawn Lover (T) X04 03
11 First Seed Lord (W) X16 02
12 Rain's Hand MAGE X10 04
1 Second Seed Shadow (T) X05 05
2 Mid Year Steed (W) X22 07
3 Sun's Height Apprentice (M) X13 00
4 Last Seed WARRIOR X17 11
5 Hearthfire Lady (W) X07 01
6 Frostfall Tower (T) X06 09
7 Sun's Dusk Golem/Atr (M) X09 10
8 Evening Star THIEF X14 08
Notes: The runes appear on the Stros M'Kai constellation chart in the order shown here, running clockwise. The 'guardian' constellations (highlighted here in yellow) are marked on the chart in blue, as already noted previously.
Edit: I have updated the table above to display the positions of the runes that represent the constellations as they appear on the Stros M'Kai star chart.
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Edited by Nigedo (09/30/03 10:57 PM)
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Wow thats pretty awesome. Great work there
Here is more info on the order and direction I found the pictures on the walls in Stros M'kai and the directions and order in Bamz-Amschend.
Also I have sketched some medeocre Orbits to chart the Warrior, Thief and Mage rotation on the starmap. It raises the possibility that Scarab is Lord and that the weird picture is Ritual.
http://hometown.aol.com/wizrdaegis/DwemerAstro.html
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This is really interesting, and I would be very happy to host the final report of this research in TIL. Keep working guys, this is great... finally there's some development in translating dwemer symbols. (Five trophies for you all)
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I'm not sure about your orbit ideas, Aquiantus.
I think that the planetary 'eyes' of the guardian constellations (Akatosh, Julianos and Arkay), to which you are referring, must remain in fixed positions relative to their own constellations and the others, so that they can be interpreted as forming a permanent part of that constellation.
I assume from this that their orbits keep perfect pace with the rotation of the sky as a whole.
On a slightly separate note, I have also observed that the three concentric tiers shown on the Stros M'Kai star chart illustrate the spheres of protection of the three guardian constellations.
Each of the lesser constellations is defended by the guardian constellation of that tier, which further supports their interpretation as I have described.
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Yeah I think your right about that, now that I think about it I don't think they could orbit like that.
Though I would like to find out how those three gaurdians protect their three charges. Like maybe the outer ring is slow and as you get closer the second ring moves faster and the other moves even faster. Or maybe the inner ring could move in the opposite direction or something. Don't know if thats possible.
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Quote:
I believe that I have been able to derive the meanings of the constellational symbols and images.
Using the constellational chart on UESP, I have cross-referenced the position of the symbols with the known order of the constellations' seasons as described in 'The Firmament'.
(Also see The Elder Scrolls Calendar.)
My reasoning is that 'The Firmament' tells us the month for each constellation, when the sun ascends in its part of the sky, and thereby we can know the relative positions of the constellations.
Based upon this (and providing that the Dwemer recognised the same constellations ), the images and runic symbols within the observatory at Stros M'Kai must occur in the same order as the constellations are described in 'The Firmament' and we can therefore interpret their meaning by their positions as they appear on the star chart.
This then led me to compare my results with Aquiantus' research linking the slates from Bamz-Amschend to the symbols that he has recorded from the Stros M'Kai observatory walls and floor.
Here are the combined results:-
Code:
Pos Month Constellation Rune Slate
9 Morning Star Ritual (M) X15 -
10 Sun's Dawn Lover (T) X04 03
11 First Seed Lord (W) X16 02
12 Rain's Hand MAGE X10 04
1 Second Seed Shadow (T) X05 05
2 Mid Year Steed (W) X22 07
3 Sun's Height Apprentice (M) X13 00
4 Last Seed WARRIOR X17 11
5 Hearthfire Lady (W) X07 01
6 Frostfall Tower (T) X06 09
7 Sun's Dusk Golem/Atr (M) X09 10
8 Evening Star THIEF X14 08
Notes: The runes appear on the Stros M'Kai constellation chart in the order shown here, running clockwise. The 'guardian' constellations (highlighted here in yellow) are marked on the chart in blue, as already noted previously.
Edit: I have updated the table above to display the positions of the runes that represent the constellations as they appear on the Stros M'Kai star chart.
I built alittle star chart to look at. Its just a rough draft that I finished so its not perfect yet. Like numbers aren't even and such. But this will provide a chart for those who need to see it to understand like myself  Based on Nigedo's information we are 95% positive this information is correct. Take alook for yourself. If you have sugestions how to improve the map let me know. Its just a rough draft right now.
http://hometown.aol.com/wizrdaegis/DwemerAstro.html
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what if the dwemer didn't have the Same guardian consTellations As the ones we know. what if theiRs were the lOrd, the ritual, and the toweR. what if there was more to the constellations than just Perceived Holes in oblivion. whAt if I wasN't to tired to explain mySelf. 
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OK here is what happens when I open the door to the Dwemer Ruins. Cyrus translates the Dwemer Language on the Door and says this.
Shahbth ih awerk. Stuh ndah bthahhrk. Awerd sheh hhhmzrteh.
It was pronounced
Shay-bish aye e-work. Stew m-da ba-thark. A-word shay alm-rock-tah.
The symbols on the Left Door where
X22 X13
X06 X19
X11 X24
On the Right Door it seemed to be a mirror image of the left door
where it looked like a backwards X13 which came first and then the X22.
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what if the dwemer didn't have the Same guardian consTellations As the ones we know. what if theiRs were the lOrd, the ritual, and the toweR. what if there was more to the constellations than just Perceived Holes in oblivion. whAt if I wasN't to tired to explain mySelf.
Well I do think that they have different names to their constellations then what we know now. Like the Mage would have been maybe Architect, and Golem could be Centurion, Ritual could have been Contruction. Stuff like that cause they had a totally different society.
Edit: To answer your question the pictures in Stros M'kai had a light blue symbol for the Guardions underneath them. Looking at the pictures you could easily see the keys in the Thiefs hand, the Staff in the Mage hand, the Sword and Shield in the Warrior hands.
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Edited by Aquiantus (10/01/03 12:07 AM)
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Here's a more detailed, or indepth look at this.
From the Months of the Year
found here http://til.gamingsource.co.uk/calendar.shtml
"January Morning Star
February Sun's Dawn
March First Seed
April Rain's Hand
May Second Seed
June Mid Year
July Sun's Height
August Last Seed
September Hearthfire
October Frostfall
November Sun's Dusk
December Evening Star "
And from the information in the Firmament which says what Sign is in which season.
found here http://til.gamingsource.co.uk/mwbooks/firmament.shtml
"The Warrior's own season is Last Seed
The Mage is a Guardian Constellation whose Season is Rain's Hand
The Thief is the last Guardian Constellation, and her Season is the darkest month of Evening Star
The Lady is one of the Warrior's Charges and her Season is Heartfire
The Steed is one of the Warrior's Charges, and her Season is Mid Year.
The Lord's Season is First Seed
The Apprentice's Season is Sun's Height
The Atronach (often called the Golem) is one of the Mage's Charges. Its season is Sun's Dusk.
The Ritual is one of the Mage's Charges and its Season is Morning Star.
The Lover is one of the Thief's Charges and her season is Sun's Dawn.
The Shadow's Season is Second Seed.
The Tower is one of the Thief's Charges and its Season is Frostfall."
And we know which Three are the Gaurdians because only those three were designated with the symbol underneath them in light blue. The others did not have light blue, it was yellow. So out of 12 Constellation Pictures at Stros M'kai only 3 had light blue Dwemer Runes/Symbols underneath them.
The only hardest part was to find out the Pictures meaning of the Thief and the Warrior. At first I could not decide cause they both looked strong like warriors, but then upon closely examining one I noticed his hands in Stros M'kai had keys in both hands. That made it easy to figure out which ones we today call Mage, Thief and Warrior.
From that information I guessed on the rest to determine what they were, then Nigedo fit the puzzle together by teaching us that the Firmament and the Star Chart all fit together without a mistake.
That means the Symbols, the Starchart, the Seasons and the Constellation names are all confirmed as being true in this chart here.
http://hometown.aol.com/wizrdaegis/DwemerAstro.html
I didn't get it at first either. But take another look, we know what Constellation Sign goes to what Season based on the Firmament. We know what Seasonal Month comes first from the Calender. We know the three Pictures of the Thief, Mage and Warrior in Stros M'kai connect perfectly to the Starmap from Stros M'kai because each has light blue Dwemer Runes underneath. When you put it all together Nigedo's Information and what Dwarven Rune relates to the Guardians and then plug it into the Starmap it all matches up perfectly.
So I stand behind this as being 95% correct right now. (I may have made clerical errors somewhere though)
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Edited by Aquiantus (10/01/03 12:53 AM)
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Ok I updated the Dwemer Signs webpage. It now has the correct Names under each sign based on the Star map chart I made. It also now has pictures from the Observatory in Stros M'kai.
http://hometown.aol.com/wizrdaegis/myhomepage/DwemerSigns.html
Very interesting things to note. Alot of Signs in the modern time is different from the Signs in the Dwemer time.
For instance they were anti-magical by nature. So Apprentice would be maybe an Armorer clad which we believed to look like a Golem. Take a look you'll be suprised by some of the findings.
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Here's the problem with our theory though.
In Redgaurd I spoke to a guy named Coyle whom i'm supposed to help out. Here is the information he gave on the signs.
Coyle tells of the three circles of the heavens, and of the three guardians that protect their three charges, each to its own circle.
Coyle recited the verse concerning The Guardian Warrior - Strong Warrior charges, Steed prancing, Lady dancing, Lord advancing.
Coyle recided the verse concernting The Guardian Mage - Wise Mage orders, Apprentice learning, Ritual turning, Golem burning.
Coyle recited the verse concernting The Guardian Thief - Clever Thief watches, Lover sighing, Shadow lying, Tower defying.
Which then puts a big monkey wrench into the theory because If the Lover is Sighing and the Lady is Dancing then we have the pictures mixed up based on that.
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Oh Aquiantus,
The pictures from Stros M'Kai are so much clearer. It is so easy to see the Thief now, with his keys and hooded face. Well done! How did you manage to take screenshots of them? 
And 'The Ritual'.. how bizarre. It almost looks like some kind of mechanists' council meeting - the members arranged in large machine.
I agree that some of the pictures relate to unexpected constellations, but the research is sound and the runes most certainly are what we say, of that I am 100% certain.
It is possible that the devs used the wrong pictures in a couple of instances, e.g. Lady and Lover, Lord and Apprentice... but the meanings of them are correct as they stand and as we must accept them to be.
Quote:
when I open the door to the Dwemer Ruins. Cyrus translates the Dwemer Language on the Door and says this.
Shahbth ih awerk. Stuh ndah bthahhrk. Awerd sheh hhhmzrteh.
Ah, now that is very interesting and I am sure will prove important.
If you have now been able to take screenshots from Redguard, could you publish the contents of all books that Cyrus refers to? Or could you just type out the content? Sorry, I know it's a chore, but we must not overlook anything of possible relevance.
Edit: I have just noticed that in the image of 'The Mage' from Stros M'Kai, it is much easier to see that he appears to be connected to out of sight machinery by leads attached to his head. This reminds me very much of the situation that the Neravarine discovered Sotha Sil to have been in.
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Edited by Nigedo (10/01/03 07:42 AM)
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Ok here's the deal. I think someone screwed up the placement of the pictures in the Observatory. The Rhymes do not correlate to the pictures very well. Basically the lover and Lady pictures are wrongly placed in the Observatory, the Steed and Golem are wrongly placed. Some of the others might be aswell.
So here is some information that may spark a debate on rather or not it was a screw up.
From m0use.net
http://www.m0use.net/~crodo/tips/rg/serpent04sp.html
"Truth be told, I have no idea how the information in Ffoulke's Journal relates to the school rhyme and the pictures in the observatory. I kept trying all three positions for each constellation until I found the sucker.
I began with an F9 quick save before selecting an image and riding the pedestal up to the telescope. I would then look at the star map at the location for all three settings. If I didn't see the snake, I would leap off the ledge and fall to my death, do a quick restore, and then try the next setting.
There's obviously something I don't understand here. If someone could please explain to me how things are related, I'd appreciate it very much. Unfortunately, I just dumbed my way through this one and got lucky. "
Simple answer is, someone screwed up the pictures, so some will not relate. Therefor Pictures placed in Morrowind or Tribunal may be designated wrongly because this is wrong. For instance Morrowind could very well have the Lady as the Lover while Redguard has it backwards, or vice versa.
The thing is Coyle's Rhyme is definitly saying that the Golem is burning and the Lady is dancing and the Steed and prancing. So some of the pictures are wrong cause they aren't doing that in the pictures in the Observatory.
So what if we are wrong about our theory. If we are wrong then the Rhyme is wrong. It says that the guardians protect its circles. If you were to switch the lover and lady then the Guardian would not longer rotate in a circle but a oval.
I had three oval orbits of the three starmaps before based on the Rhyme. I decided that was wrong because other information from the firmament proves otherwise. Even so the Rhyme is still half right with our theory. It says they guard the circles. Inside each of those circles if you look at the starmap is in its ring. If one is outside of its ring then it would cease to be a circle.
Conclusion - some pictures are wrongly placed.
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Aquiantus, I can understand your concern, but the evidence to suppport the interpretation of the runes and pictures is overwhelming.
If (and it is undecided) the developers confused the positions of a couple of pairs of images, then it does not change their interpretation as they now stand, nor does it affect interpretation of the constellations' positons on the star chart, nor the Dwemeri runes that represent them.
The runes simply cannot be interpreted if their meanings are different from those we have given, which would make a nonsense of the developers' clues to deciphering the chart.
Work again from the guardian constellations (which are obviously correct  ) and you will soon see that the other images can only represent the constellations we have agreed.
Coyle's poetry does not appear to be an accurate description of the images that represent the constellations; none of the images appears to be 'burning', and it is plausible that the the poetry is only intended to help you to remember the names of the constellations and not to relate directly to how they are represented by the Dwemer.
On reflection, I think that the only two images that may be out of place are The Lady and The Lover. The Lord does make sense, since I notice that he has the runes for all of the other constellations scribed on his robes, representing his theoretical lordship over them. And The Apprentice is trying out the armour that his master, The Mage, has constructed.
The images and poetry signify little in helping Cyrus to overcome this puzzle, since all that is required is to understand the relative positions of the head and tail of The Serpent (as witnessed through the telescope) and place the stones in relation to the correct runes. This can all be established by noting the rune that represents the constellation where The Serpent is discovered.
So, don't be alarmed. We are entirely correct as we have presented our findings (barring the sole possibilty that you have noted the positions of the images in relation to the runes incorrectly, which I very much doubt. )
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Aquiantus, I can understand your concern, but the evidence to suppport the interpretation of the runes and pictures is overwhelming.
If (and it is undecided) the developers confused the positions of a couple of pairs of images, then it does not change their interpretation as they now stand, nor does it affect interpretation of the constellations' positons on the star chart, nor the Dwemeri runes that represent them.
The runes simply cannot be interpreted if their meanings are different from those we have given, which would make a nonsense of the developers' clues to deciphering the chart.
Work again from the guardian constellations (which are obviously correct ) and you will soon see that the other images can only represent the constellations we have agreed.
I 100% agree. Its either a few misplaced paintings and the Rhyme is incorrect due to it or the Rhyme would still be incorect if we are incorect (since all the evidence but this leads to it). Leading to a paradox that brings us back to we are correct.
Anyhow the Dwarven Runes are correctly translated, but this leads to a more pressing question I now have on my mind. Are there mistakes in the Dwemer Language? Could it be rubbish in the Egg and Meta books? Without the proper paintings how do we intepret what the Dwemer would have called that Rune? The guardians are the only ones absolute, the tower and shadow seem to be aswell but none of the others. This cuts alot of the "keys" from figuring out the dwemer language.
It should be adressed to them and I would think they would fix it and/or let us know what Paintings are meant to be what or what the Rhyme should have said.
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Sorry, Aquiantus, I edited my last post and said much more.
I don't think that the very few possible errors in placing the images affects the interpretation of the runes' meanings at all.
The Apprentice is still The Apprentice, The Lover still The Lover, regardless of the pictoral image used to represent them.
We can, of course, postulate about the Dwemeri understanding of these constellations' spheres of influence, but the real issue is how is it that these runes are applied both in common language and to represent these constellations?
It is far too easy to get ahead of ourselves and begin to see problems that are not yet ready for consideration.
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Quote:
Sorry, Aquiantus, I edited my last post and said much more.
I don't think that the very few possible errors in placing the images affects the interpretation of the runes' meanings at all.
The Apprentice is still The Apprentice, The Lover still The Lover, regardless of the pictoral image used to represent them.
We can, of course, postulate about the Dwemeri understanding of these constellations' spheres of influence, but the real issue is how is it that these runes are applied both in common language and to represent these constellations?
It is far too easy to get ahead of ourselves and begin to see problems that are not yet ready for consideration.
I tried print screen on the books, wouldn't let me do that. However the symbols inside are completely different then any other in the Dwemer Language. Which leads me to conclude it is giberish, which also leads me to making the determination that the Dwemer Language is in itself giberish.
For instance pipes on the wall are both fowards and backwards. The language is both written from left to right in some instances and from top to bottom in other instances.
If it is written from top to bottom the first Symbols of the Egg or Meta would not make sense cause they are spaced apart. We know they aren't numbers cause some of them would equal the Constellation sign.
We see symbols like whats on the Doors that are both written on the left side correctly and then on the left door where it is inverse (as if a mirror image) The words that come out are 9 in total plus 3 periods. If the backward symbols actually meant a period, then which ones are the period, surely 3 different symbols are not periods. If it was only translated from the 6 corect symbols on the right door then how does each symbol equal a word and a half, how does the last symbol equal a word and a half plus a period.
So I'm heavily leaning towards, its giberish.
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Edited by Aquiantus (10/01/03 08:31 AM)
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Quote:
I tried print screen on the books, wouldn't let me do that. However the symbols inside are completely different then any other in the Dwemer Language.
How many books are there? What are their titles?
Is there any part of them that is written in Tamrielic (English) that you could type out and publish?
Quote:
We see symbols like whats on the Doors that are both written on the left side correctly and then on the left door where it is inverse (as if a mirror image).
Could you publish screen shots of this, so that we can look at it together?
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You can see it here.
http://hometown.aol.com/wizrdaegis/DwemerRunes.html
There's only like 5 books. Ones Firmament, Dwarven Lore, Elven Artifacts vol 3, Redguard Heroes.
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What is written in the 'Dwarven Lore' book? Is there *anything* that you can share about it?
Thank you for creating the page with examples of Dwemer writings on various objects.
Actually, I find it reassuring to note that the same runes are used repeatedly across all of the examples you have provided.
If Dwemer runes are used in different directions then this is just further information to be considered and does not preclude meaning.
Why the specific runes that are used to represent the constellations also appear in writings and what their true meaning could be is still open to debate, as is the vast majority of the evidence.
Don't lose heart, we have made some incredibly useful progress and *any* progress with the Dwemer language is exceptional.
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The mirror image of a letter is not always going to be false. With the Dwemer language, I have noted that many runes have a mirror image as well.
PS: The constellations were most likely the basis for the runes. They stared out as hieroglpyhs, and eventually become phonetic.
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I have begun to use the Telescope. And the telescope has three positions. Each position is a quadrant of the guardians designated by their sign when I turn a wheel on the machine. So far our work is confirmed true by this. I am taking screens of the stars as I see them in the telescope. I will note any mistakes if I come across them but I am half-way through cataloging it.
Also the books, I had to hand write the books as it would not let me screenie it during the menu mode. So I have drawn it on paper as it looks. I will also provide the information the bookseller says and what Cyrus says as he picks it up. I have to scan them into the computer as pictures, so it is my hand writing with pictures as best I could draw them. In the dwemer book, the paragraphs displaying each symbol was unreadable to me. So It will only have the Runes inside and some scribbly lines to denote the paragraphs.
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Ok a new webpage is up. It is another list of the Constellation signs, only the difference is, this one is not the pictures on the wall, but actual pictures from viewing in the Dwemer Observatory Telescope. Also in the telescope it had a Dwemer Rune for each sign as I looked at it, the rune is in the upper left hand corner of each picture. You can click on the images for larger size.
http://hometown.aol.com/wizrdaegis/DwemerAstronomy.html
Also this confirms more that we have got it right. Each of them is under a Quadrant that I had to set in the Telescope machine to view. If you download the images you'll notice a Q1, Q2 or Q3 at the end of their names. This is because that is where I screen shot them. Q1 being Thief Quadrant, Q2 being Mage Quadrant and Q3 being Warrior Quadrant.
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Here are the books (Dwarven Lore, Elven Artifacts, Firmament), they are hand written and hard to make out. These where hand written from the game Redguard by me. I could not take screen shots in the menu mode. I will type out what they mean later on. But if you must read them now, either download them and zoom in on them with your graphic program or try to read whats in the book from the website.
http://hometown.aol.com/wizrdaegis/Books.html
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Ok here is the Information on the books.
Cyrus Speaks to J'ffer about the books.
=====
You recommend Favoril's Dwarven Lore?
Marabar Sul's Ancient Tales of the Dwemer is more comprehensive,
but hard to come by, alas, and a weighty tome, too at 16 volumes
=====
What do you think about Ffoulke's Firmament?
Less Ambitious than Yoonkarl's published studies and less
concerned with comparative atrology. Though a decidely human
take on the stars of tamrield, Ffoulke's firmament is not without
it's own virtues. J'ffer can part with it, then for 36 gold.
=====
what do you know of this Legendary Flask?
Legends surround it, but J'ffer is sure the flask is real.
Scribes of ancient Lillandril record its discovery -- yes,
the flask is not of elvish make, despite what you may read.
They found it, used it, and lost it, but its creator is unknown.
What makes the flask so valuable?
Here we have only legend to guide us. Stories tell of the high wizard
of Valenwood himself defeated by a stable-boy armed only with the flask.
Exaggeration, surely, but still a kernel of truth -- and anti-magic device
of no small power.
It sounds like the flask may absorb magic.
Perhaps. That would explain why no mage has ever been able to detect its location.
====
Cyrus picks up the books from the shelves and this is what he says are in them.
====
Elven Artifacts v. III
This book on Elven Artifacts Details the flask of Lillandril, an ancient flask with
the ability to absorb magic. The flask was supposedly shipwrecked with its founders off the coast of Stros M'Kai sometime during the first era. One of the sections has a map notation, maybe someone can make a map.
====
Ffoulke's Firmament
It says here that the stars of Tamriel are divided into thirteen constellations. Three of them are the major constellations. The guardions, which protect the minor ones, their charges, from the thirteenth constellation, which is the Serpent. Each Guardian has three charges a piece, and are only on guard during their paticular season. The current season is presided over by the Warrior.
====
Favoril's Dwarven Lore
This book on Dwarven Lore reveals that the dwarves were destroyed long ago by the dark elves. There is one interesting passage which translates the Dwarven Language which bears a slight resemblance to elven.
====
What the books say Inside them -
Ffoulke's Firmament
pg 1
<Picture of Warrior Constellation>
Active from Sun's Height to Hearth Fire
The Warrior is a Guardian Constellation, and thus protects his Charges from the Serpent during his Season. His Charges are the Lady the Steed, and the Lord. Minor Constellations which share his Quadrant of the Heavens
pg 2
The Serpent threatens Different Charges during Different Seasons, and the Warrior's very aspect will change according to the Times. If, for example, his Lady is being threatened the Warrior will seem as if he is looking to his left,
<pictures of Lord, Lady, Steed constellations>
Eyes blazing towards that part of the sky wherein she resides. Thus, to find the Serpent during the Warriors Season look to where he looks for that is where the Coiled Beast is active.
====
Elven Artifacts v. III
pg 1
of Lillandril, a magical flask discovered during the 1st era of Tamriel (c. 11470)
by a group of Elves living in Lillandril, a port city on the Northern shore of
Summerset Isle. Upon learning that the
<picture of flask>
flask had the mervellous property at being able to
absorb magic of any persusion, the founders realized their importance in the world and spread word of their discovery. They performed various favors for the Barons of Summerset Isle, keeping the magical powers of the Wood Elves of Vallenwood in check
<picture of a region with map notations>
Eventually the founders, worried that Wood Elf assassins may kill them and take the flask, left Summerset Isle for the City of Daggerfall. In High Rock, where
pg 2
they hoped to buy their safety from the Clan Diremni, to live in secret protected by the Diremni.
Whilesailing from Summerset to High Rock they were shipwrecked on the corel reef along the southern coast of what is Stros M'kai. The founders were killed and the Flask of Lillandril was lost. Stories of the flask have appeared over the ages, but it is still believed by many that it is lost somewhere on the island of Stros M'kai.
<Picture of mountains and map notations>
References linking the island to the flask occur in manuscript fragments of unknown but ancient origin held in the
private Library of Emile Dexlan at Sentinal. One piece of Lagan Text, has symbols (reproduced above) which could be interprited as map references. This has led to he theory that the location of the flask was known at some time after the founders demise.
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Edited by Aquiantus (10/02/03 02:22 AM)
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Fascinating stuff guys
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*Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec*
*Forum Scholars Guild | Tamriel Rebuilt*
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What is Stros M'kai?
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Quote:
What is Stros M'kai?
Its a small Island where the game Redguard takes place. The location is located South West of Hammerfell.
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Ok made a small discovery into the Dwemer language based on what we do know.
The Airship plans have these four symbols on them.
Ritual
Shadow
Lady
Golem
The meaning partial translation would be
"Construct that floats and is a ship transport." Or
"Mechanical Floating Ship Transport/Vehicle"
Possibly even "Designs/Plans for Floating Ship Transport"
You can see it here. http://hometown.aol.com/wizrdaegis/DwemerRunes.html I have marked the ones I recognized. I haven't done them all yet but this was a pretty good indication of their language.
Now the arguement on why I came to that conclusion.
1. The Ritual, the Dwemer didn't have rituals, by nature they were very mechanics not spiritualists. So construction/repairing/designing/mechanical would be what they would hold as dear as a ritual/prayer to spiritualists.
2. Shadow - Shadows have the ability to float, follow and drift.
3. Lady - Often refered to as something that carries something, as in a woman that carries a child does. Mother is often used as things that are designed to carry people like transports. So its meaning in the phrase would be ship to us.
4. Golem - a device that is used that moves and transports people. If you look at the Golem picture in the Astrology page you'll notice a small man sitting inside a machine. This is used as a vehicle or transport by the Dwemer.
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Also note: The Airship plans and the other "golem" plans were found next to one another. In another room I found the Huge octagon shaped shield. All three have the Ritual, Shadow, Lady, Golem on them going down.
Later on as I'm walking along just outside the ruins, I noticed that there was an Airship guarded by a ton of guards. Atleast 10 on the way to get to it.
This makes it a notworthy find in the Dwemer language and I'm sure those two plans found right next together and the shield have very much to do with the contruction of that Airship. There isn't another Dwemer ruin anywhere for hundreds of miles, and it is highly unlikely that the ship was brought over from another place. Since we know the Governor had just recently sent tons of guards to this one ruins to find some artifacts, it was a recent discover by them and came from those Dwarven Ruins.
So not only do we know that the Symbols are not letters, they are actual words/meanings of words. We also know now that their language could mostly be written from top to bottom. Atleast in Redguard it was written from top to bottom.
Since they are words/meanings the Dwemer Runes that are placed backwards may actually mean the opposite of that word/meaning.
It is still unclear to me if those 4 runes put together mean just one word Airship as if a Heiroglyph or if in fact they are four seperate words that mean the same approximatly.
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Here's something to mule over aswell.
On the Stros M'kai Dwemer Doors it has the Steed then Apprentice next going from left to right. If these doors where from left to right (to confuse us like we've already seen demonstrated via the pictures of constellations) and using Dwemer syllables of Shah-Bth then Steed would could be Shah and Apprentice could be Bth.
If you look at the Egg of Time, reportedly it starts with O'Bth. If you look at is as if it is written from top to bottom you see the second symbol is also the Apprentice. This would mean it is Bth.
Thats if it is written down, this is only speculation right now.
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Edited by Aquiantus (10/02/03 07:21 AM)
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Quote:
Quote:
What is Stros M'kai?
Its a small Island where the game Redguard takes place. The location is located South West of Hammerfell.
Is Redguard one of those cellphone games?
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Its a previous Elder Scrolls game kinda like Daggerfall but alot less known.
Edit: If you wanna try it out go to the Past Games forum just below this one. There's a sticky there with demo's, its an ok game but its an oldie so graphics aren't very pleasing. And its super small Island, so it mostly talking to people figuring out quests. Its main town is about as big about the size of Ald-ruhn. And its the only city on this small island. So its pretty small land mass wise.
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Edited by Aquiantus (10/02/03 07:37 AM)
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Quote:
Its a previous Elder Scrolls game kinda like Daggerfall but alot less known.
Where to get it?
Must have, must, must, must!!!
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I better warn you though, the demo requires a 3dfx card to use. But, the game isn't very well know if you actually wanted to buy it, I would probably get it from a store that special orders it for you. Shouldn't be much, the full version will work without the 3dfx.
Also if you have XP, 2000 or NT I don't think it will run, had to use my old bro's computer to run it with a Nvidia card and win98 cuase my XP machine wouldn't allow it to run, something about it not wanting to give access to the hard drive for the game.
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QuiTu,
For further information about Redguard ;
TES Past Games forum
Redguard Official Site
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Quote:
If these doors where from left to right (to confuse us like we've already seen demonstrated via the pictures of constellations) and using Dwemer syllables of Shah-Bth then Steed would could be Shah and Apprentice could be Bth.
If you look at the Egg of Time, reportedly it starts with O'Bth. If you look at is as if it is written from top to bottom you see the second symbol is also the Apprentice. This would mean it is Bth.
Yes, I noticed this too. Very, very interesting. I agree that this may be one way of interpreting the use of the constellational glyphs in written language, by treating them as representing sounds such as 'BTH'.
A similar idea is used in the Tribunal's names, where 'Vivec' is derived from the pronunciation of the daedric 'V' which is 'vehk', hence 'v-vehk'.
We could refer to Vireyar's post earlier and attempt to identify some of the possible sounds associated with the other constellational glyphs.
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Quote:
The Airship plans have these four symbols on them.
Ritual
Shadow
Lady
Golem
The meaning partial translation would be
"Construct that floats and is a ship transport." Or
"Mechanical Floating Ship Transport/Vehicle"
Possibly even "Designs/Plans for Floating Ship Transport"
This really is excellent logic and a very good first attempt to translate by using these glyphs.
I think that there may be a lot of merit in taking this approach. We should try to look at other possible applications of the glyphs as well, though, such as representing sounds that link to form words with arbitrary meanings, as we have briefly discussed.
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Hey didn't notice this before but take alook at the Lord with the Serpent in it. Down below is a Dwarven Rune similar to a V awesome. And the Warrior also has another Rune in the telescope view. It looks like that symbol with his symbol might mean that it is that Season or something. Interesting.
Also, click on the pictures to enlarge them so you get a better view of the runes.
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You all were getting warm.... but it's getting cooler now. Back up a little bit. You are pondering symbols far too much and that will get you nowhere.
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gary noonan
animator guy
bethesda softworks
"too weird to live, too rare to die...."
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Thanks WormGod, I take your implication that the Dwemer language *can* be interpreted after all.
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Hello all. I'm amazed at your progress and congratulate you!!
A couple of points I've noticed: You've mentioned that in certain spots like doors and pipes, runes are reversed or mirror-imaged. Before concluding that these are new symbols or different ways of writing the language...remember that in the construction set, you could easily flip a pipe 180º and the symbols would be "wrong." Also, whoever created these objects (especially in the case of the doors that split in the middle), could have made them the short way by creating one swinging door, and mirrored it to create the other side, therefore making the runes backwards. I'm not sure if this is what you guys are referring to, and this may not matter at all, but just something I thought I'd point it out.
Secondly, I'm not sure what the picture is of, but at http://hometown.aol.com/wizrdaegis/DwemerRunes.html, on the picture just under the Hanging Gardens and Egg of Time screenshots (the octagon), there's the
Ritual
Shadow
Lady
Golem
sequence just as there is on the Airship plans. Now I don't know what the octagon is from, so I don't know if it has direct correlation with the Airship. Either way, in my opinion, the sequence seems to have a much more general meaning than anything specific to the airship. No clue as to what, however  .
I don't know if I'd follow the route you've taken with taking meaning from the constellation names and turning them into language. It could seem promising as Aquaintus has shown, but you can only say so much that way with the constellation runes. Soon you might start saying, "well, in this case, Theif means [this] and Lady could mean [that], but here theif could refer to [this2]." And so on...
I hope this has been of some help and not just pointless gibberish. Good luck and I'll continue to observe closely!
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Ahh if only we found the tes equivalent of a rosetta stone....
A mer can dream...
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Quote:
Hello all. I'm amazed at your progress and congratulate you!!
A couple of points I've noticed: You've mentioned that in certain spots like doors and pipes, runes are reversed or mirror-imaged. Before concluding that these are new symbols or different ways of writing the language...remember that in the construction set, you could easily flip a pipe 180º and the symbols would be "wrong." Also, whoever created these objects (especially in the case of the doors that split in the middle), could have made them the short way by creating one swinging door, and mirrored it to create the other side, therefore making the runes backwards. I'm not sure if this is what you guys are referring to, and this may not matter at all, but just something I thought I'd point it out.
Secondly, I'm not sure what the picture is of, but at http://hometown.aol.com/wizrdaegis/DwemerRunes.html, on the picture just under the Hanging Gardens and Egg of Time screenshots (the octagon), there's the
Ritual
Shadow
Lady
Golem
sequence just as there is on the Airship plans. Now I don't know what the octagon is from, so I don't know if it has direct correlation with the Airship. Either way, in my opinion, the sequence seems to have a much more general meaning than anything specific to the airship. No clue as to what, however .
I don't know if I'd follow the route you've taken with taking meaning from the constellation names and turning them into language. It could seem promising as Aquaintus has shown, but you can only say so much that way with the constellation runes. Soon you might start saying, "well, in this case, Theif means [this] and Lady could mean [that], but here theif could refer to [this2]." And so on...
I hope this has been of some help and not just pointless gibberish. Good luck and I'll continue to observe closely!
Your probably right, I'm just throwing many ideas out there as I see them. I have nothing truely conclusive yet. The octogon shield did come from the same ruins as the 2 plans so it could mean something more general like maybe what the name of that stronghold was or something of that nature.
I would like to mention this cause I think it was very interesting. I don't know how this fits together with everything but take a look.
The starmap found here at http://hometown.aol.com/wizrdaegis/DwemerAstro.html
Ok on this Starmap what is interesting to note is this.
There are
36 Sectors
24 empty Sectors
12 Permanent Constellations
3 Guardians
9 Charges (lesser Constellations)
Each Circle of the Guardians has 12 Sectors
So whats related to all these? They all have the number 3 in common.
But why is 3 important? I really don't know but here are some other things that have 3 in common
and there are 36 Lessons of Vivec
http://www.whirlingschool.net/sermon0.html
Anyhow just found it fascinating that alot of 3's are in the game
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You've mentioned that in certain spots like doors and pipes, runes are reversed or mirror-imaged. Before concluding that these are new symbols or different ways of writing the language...remember that in the construction set, you could easily flip a pipe 180º and the symbols would be "wrong."
I had the same thoughts, but with my internet connection having been (and still being) spotty, couldn't mention it. Difficult enough reading this thread, let alone trying to reply.
on the picture just under the Hanging Gardens and Egg of Time screenshots (the octagon), there's the
Ritual
Shadow
Lady
Golem
sequence just as there is on the Airship plans. Now I don't know what the octagon is from, so I don't know if it has direct correlation with the Airship. Either way, in my opinion, the sequence seems to have a much more general meaning than anything specific to the airship. No clue as to what, however .
Could this be "nchmarthurnidamz" (see the closing notes to Chimarvamidium)? That has four major syllables that I can tell - nch, mar, thur, ndamz. The i may have been added to improve pronunciability in Cyrodiilic (that's the common language of Tamriel, yes?). Or it could be that one rune after another rune simply has a certain sound in the middle - in Spanish Spanish (as opposed to Mexican or Latin American Spanish), a "c" in the middle of a word carries a very soft 'th" sound. It could be an unwritten rule to the language.
Nigedo: We could refer to Vireyar's post earlier and attempt to identify some of the possible sounds associated with the other constellational glyphs.
I have been trying to do this, with extremely minor success. I can identify the Shadow as its corresponding rune (X5) with a 300 degree rotation to the right, but have not had any success with the others; this was likely a fluke, especially given how simple the Shadow constellation is. The rotation of the constellations is quite possible; we can see this with a constellation that is always near the north or south pole. For instance, Cassiopoeia appears as an M or a W at different times of the year. I've also been giving some thought to the idea that some of the constellations' stars may have changed in brightness over the thousands of years since the Dawn Era to when the Dwemer disappeared in the First Era. They would still be identifiable as the same constellation, just with some minor differences.
Also, the runes represented by the constellations could have changed over the years, as Sumerian cuneiform evolved into a pictographic language.
Anyway, back to nchmarthurnidamz - Ritual, Shadow, Lady, Golem: X15, X5, X7, X9. Nch mar thur ndamz. Nigedo has already mentioned that X15 is the most common rune, and nch is a very common syllable (nchmarthurnidamz, Nchuleft, Nchuleftingth, Mzahnch, Nchardahrk, Bthanchend, Nchardumz, Bluthanch, Leftunch, Rkungthunch, Dalen-Zanchu, Nchunak, Chinzinch, etc.). Might this be a possible avenue to explore?
I'd also like to revise when I said It almost fits what I see as the most common combinations: "O _ Bth u a nd s _ ? ?" - characters X 27, 14, 8, 15, 21, 19, with the underscore being 26. The first ? is X5; the second is X18.
I think it is more likely (though I could be trying to fit data to an unproven conclusion - bad, bad form) that it is "O _ B th u a nd _ s X18". Th appears without a prefixing b quite a few times; I don't think it would be entirely unlikely to think that they had separate runes for each combination.
Aquiantus: X15 could very well be the Letter A. It could be as Vireyar suggested. It sure is used alot and its also used as one word. ... I also wanna mention really quick, I've noticed alot of U's in the Dwemer words. Perhaps that might be one of the more higher used letters.
But remember, this is the Dwemer language. The letter "a" frequently appears in Spanish/French/other Romance languages, but not for the same purposes as English. "A" in Spanish, for instance, is a preposition: "a la playa" means "at the beach".
Not that I am disagreeing with your second point, not at all - u and a do seem to be the most frequent vowels, and we don't know how many extraneous vowel sounds have been inserted into transliterations. I've seen Kagrenac referred to as Kagrnak, and it seems to have been intentionally spelled like that. Along the same vein, in my list of the most common transliterated groups: "left" could very well be "lft".
WormGod: You all were getting warm.... but it's getting cooler now. Back up a little bit. You are pondering symbols far too much and that will get you nowhere.
Encouragement from a dev is always worthwhile, vague it may be ^.^ I suppose that asking "how far back should we back up?" wouldn't help, but here goes: how far back should we back up?
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Sorry to interupt but I have a quick question, where did that 6 sided figure in the upper right of
http://hometown.aol.com/wizrdaegis/DwemerRunes.html
come from? Because I am sure I have seen that in Morrowind somewhere... I think on the large Dwemer crossbows that sit outside a few of their ruins. It's on the same side as the controls.
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Sorry to interupt but I have a quick question, where did that 6 sided figure in the upper right of
http://hometown.aol.com/wizrdaegis/DwemerRunes.html
come from? Because I am sure I have seen that in Morrowind somewhere... I think on the large Dwemer crossbows that sit outside a few of their ruins. It's on the same side as the controls.
I took a screenie of that one from the ruins in Stros M'kai. If you find it, could you screenie them and send me a copy, I'm trying to collect everything with the runes on them so people have them all in one spot. The Lord and Shadow Constellations also have runes on them aswell.
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Not wishing to go much further off topic with the astronomical tangent.
Aquiantus and I have completed a brief comparative survey of the correlation between major points as shown in both the Dwemeri and Tamrielic representations of the constellations (the Tamrielic are taken from TESIII: Morrowind).
The survey confirms most of the identifications that we have made of the Dwemeri constellations and, by extension, the runes that represent them.
You can see the results here.
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There are
36 Sectors
24 empty Sectors
12 Permanent Constellations
3 Guardians
9 Charges (lesser Constellations)
Each Circle of the Guardians has 12 Sectors
So whats related to all these? They all have the number 3 in common.
But why is 3 important? I really don't know but here are some other things that have 3 in common
That may be of some significance, it may not. It could just be the result of the starmap shape and how many constellations they decided upon. Then again, it would make a lot of sense for the Dwemer language itself to be based on mathematical patterns or equations. It would fit the Dwemer perfectly. I've looked at the runes themselves, but I've failed several times to find any mathematical trend. I tried counting the number of lines in each rune, etc, but didn't find any patterns.
At any rate, I believe it would be a worthwhile effort to consider and research the idea that the language is related to math (possibly revolving around 3).
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Since I don't know your e-mail...
Just follow the link on this site here.
The panel is on the right side of the "control seat" but is mirrored on the left side as well.
There's another picture of the ruins (Arkngthunch-Sturdumz btw) that I saw that you guys don't appear to have... They might be letters or something I don't know.
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Since I don't know your e-mail...
Just follow the link on this site here.
The panel is on the right side of the "control seat" but is mirrored on the left side as well.
There's another picture of the ruins (Arkngthunch-Sturdumz btw) that I saw that you guys don't appear to have... They might be letters or something I don't know.
Wow thanks alot those look great!
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Ok modified the Dwemer Runes page here
http://hometown.aol.com/wizrdaegis/DwemerRunes.html
I had some incorrectly marked as backward steed when it was X20 from the Index. Also named the ones that were marked as unknown using the Index. Added Solin's pictures to the page, and organized it so that top has pictures from Redguard and bottom has pictures from Morrowind.
The Index I used can be found here
http://hometown.aol.com/aquiantus/DwemerIndex.html
Do you think I should add the names of the Constellations to the Index?
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Quote:
Quote:
There are
36 Sectors
24 empty Sectors
12 Permanent Constellations
3 Guardians
9 Charges (lesser Constellations)
Each Circle of the Guardians has 12 Sectors
So whats related to all these? They all have the number 3 in common.
But why is 3 important? I really don't know but here are some other things that have 3 in common
That may be of some significance, it may not. It could just be the result of the starmap shape and how many constellations they decided upon. Then again, it would make a lot of sense for the Dwemer language itself to be based on mathematical patterns or equations. It would fit the Dwemer perfectly. I've looked at the runes themselves, but I've failed several times to find any mathematical trend. I tried counting the number of lines in each rune, etc, but didn't find any patterns.
At any rate, I believe it would be a worthwhile effort to consider and research the idea that the language is related to math (possibly revolving around 3).
Here is what I've found on three. There are a few that have "dozens" in them but have left those out. But here is what I could find on three's relating to the Dwemers by Lore, Poem or Sermons. I haven't done a complete study yet. But it is important to know what letters, numbers where the most important in the Dwemer Language, and may be a single rune or perhaps a series of runes that is repeated more then once in the Dwemer Language especially in the Egg and Meta books.
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Book - Antecedents of Dwemer Law -
In the laws of Karndar Watch (P.D. 1180) it is said, "If one who is owned by another slays one who owns himself, the owner must pay the associates three fine instruments and the body of the one who his owned."
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Book - Antecedents of Dwemer Law -
There are many other similar citations. And the same principle is extended even to the case of a centurion by which a man is killed. "If, at the common workbench, one is slain by an Animunculi, the associates of the slain may disassemble the Animunculi and take its parts within thirty days."
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Book - The Ransom of Zarek
Ancient Tales of the Dwemer, Part I
"I was," said Zarek. "Three huge soaring Nords attacked by carriage on the Frimvorn Pass. Brothers, as I learned, named Mathais, Ulin, and Koorg."
Which are also Three brothers
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Book - The Ransom of Zarek
Ancient Tales of the Dwemer, Part I
How essential it was to breathe after only third or fourth stroke, not too often to slow thyself down, but not too often to lose one's air.
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Book - The Importance of Where
Ancient Tales of the Dwemer, Part III
Two mornings went by and the flocks were safe, but on the morning of the third day, another tenfold of the chieftain's flock was found butchered
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Book - The Song of the Alchemists
Ancient Tales of the Dwemer, Part V
After they had worked for nearly three-quarters an hour,
Both Ianthippus Minthurk and Umphatic Faer
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Book - The Song of the Alchemists
Ancient Tales of the Dwemer, Part V
"You think you mixed silver, blue diamonds, and yellow grass!"
3 Ingredients
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Book - Secrets of Dwemer Animunculi
The Centurion has three positions: sleep, transform and at the ready.
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Kagrenac's Tools - 3
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Tribunals - 3
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Here is the most compelling one.
Book - Sermon Zero
"22 There Kagrenac gave him the thrice-secret word: "
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I don't know if I'd follow the route you've taken with taking meaning from the constellation names and turning them into language.
Thanks evelian. You're probably right. I'm just keen to look at any possibility of how to interpret the runes at this stage and reluctant to rule anything out before we've tried it on for size.
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Could this be "nchmarthurnidamz" (see the closing notes to Chimarvamidium)?
You have made some more good observations, Vireyar.
I must say that I'm beginning to wonder how much knowing the proper pronunciations of the runes may help us to understand their meanings, though.
I do wish that *someone* would give us a little more direction at this point.
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Quote:
Quote:
Could this be "nchmarthurnidamz" (see the closing notes to Chimarvamidium)?
You have made some more good observations, Vireyar.
I must say that I'm beginning to wonder how much knowing the proper pronunciations of the runes may help us to understand their meanings, though.
I do wish that *someone* would give us a little more direction at this point.
Hehe carefull or we might accidently open the can of worms
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Hehe carefull or we might accidently open the can of worms
hehe
I have created a Links page. It lists all 7 of the webpages I created during this discussion for easy access to them.
http://hometown.aol.com/wizrdaegis/DwemerLinks.html
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I've noted which lines match on Egg1 and Meta1 on your site, just for reference.
Egg----------Meta
1 --------------- 8
2 --------------- 12
3 --------------- 14
4 --------------- 4
5 --------------- 5
6 --------------- 6
7 --------------- 9
8 --------------- 7
9 --------------- 11
10 ------------- 3
11 ------------- 2
12 ------------- 1 * Line 1 in Meta1 is one "space" left of line 12 in Egg1
13 ------------- 10
14 ------------- 13
Egg2 and Meta2 do not seem to have the same relationship.
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec | Mnemoli's Gate
Edited by Solin (10/04/03 02:56 AM)
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I've noted which lines match on Egg1 and Meta1 on your site, just for reference.
1 --------------- 8
2 --------------- 12
3 --------------- 14
4 --------------- 4
5 --------------- 5
6 --------------- 6
7 --------------- 9
8 --------------- 7
9 --------------- 11
10 ------------- 3
11 ------------- 2
12 ------------- 1 * Line 1 in Meta1 is one "space" left of line 12 in Egg1
13 ------------- 10
14 ------------- 13
Egg2 and Meta2 do not seem to have the same relationship.
Thanks for that wonderful information. My guess is that alot of words in Meta can also be found in the Egg. They are probably presented differently between the two books as if in a debate.
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Added one more picture to my webspace. It's a shot of one of the unfinished very large centurion's heads.
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Thanks I added it, I also added 2 more pictures to the page. I am running out of room on there so I made some small and made them thumbnails. You'll have to click on some to enlarge them to get a better view.
You can get there by going here.
http://hometown.aol.com/wizrdaegis/DwemerLinks.html
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If we make the assumption that each rune has a meaning (and grouping runes combines and modifies those meanings to stand for something else) then we can assume that those runes associated with the constellations have meaning(s) derived from those constellations.
In Ffoulke's Firmament, specific traits are ascribed to those born under each sign. It is reasonable to assume that those traits are likely to be universal since Ffoulke didn't say anything about the traits applying only to specific groups.
Is it possible that the runes are representative of the concepts given in that list of traits? I don't think that it's really necessary to assign sounsd groupings to the runes at this point. The meaning is more important. After all, modern archaeologists can read ancient Egyptian heiroglyphics just fine but they still don't know how to pronounce the language. Meaning is what's most important to us.
As an example, Ffoulke ascribes the traits of speed and impatience to the Steed and kindness and tolerance to the Lady.
Warrior: month of Last Seed, strength, harvest, weapons, short temper.
Mage: month of Rain's Hand, magic/engineering, beginnings, arrogance, absent-minded.
Thief: month of Evening Star, darkness, risk-taking, luck, short life.
Lady: month of Heartfire, kindness, tolerance.
Steed: month of Mid-Year, impatience, hurry, speed, ...
Lord: month of First Seed, supervisor, planting / farming, strength, health.
Apprentice: month of Sun's Height, affinity for magic, vulnerability to magic (or simply vulnerability or weakness).
Atronach: month of Sun's Dusk, reserves, natural power, inability to generate magicka.
Ritual: month of Morning Star, variety or change?
Lover: month of Sun's Dawn, grace, passion, emotion, love, beauty?.
Shadow: month of Second Seed, hide, shadows, uncertainty ?
Tower: month of Frostfall, gold, money, locks, merchant, trade?
Another thought - is it possible that number values can be ascribed to them based on the number of the month that the constellation is associated with? For example the rune associated with the Ritual would be the number 1 (or 0)?
Just a thought or two.
Clavis
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BTW, I noticed that each part of the incomplete golem has runes incribed on it. You just need to look at the right spot.
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BTW, I noticed that each part of the incomplete golem has runes incribed on it. You just need to look at the right spot.
Where can I find that at?
Also, I used Paintshop to touch up the Favoril's Dwarven Lore, it was previously hard to view cause I had hand written it. But it looks alot better now. This is the book Cyrus uses at the Double Doors to translate it and gain entry into the ruins in Stros M'kai.
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There is a near complete one in the Mournhold ruin... which is where I found a tapestry you don't have (I've got a pic on my temp site) unfortunatly I did not see a letter to go with it. All the other tapestries that you have are there as well however the lady (have you guys resolved that lady/lover thing yet?) is partially buried in rubble.
There are also parts of the large golem in Kargnac's Study in the northwestish of the red mountain region. I think that all the parts have the same letters on them.
Are you guys working on the meanings of the symbols (Wormgod said this was useless right?) or trying to convert the letters into sounds/other known letters?
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There is a near complete one in the Mournhold ruin... which is where I found a tapestry you don't have (I've got a pic on my temp site) unfortunatly I did not see a letter to go with it. All the other tapestries that you have are there as well however the lady (have you guys resolved that lady/lover thing yet?) is partially buried in rubble.
There are also parts of the large golem in Kargnac's Study in the northwestish of the red mountain region. I think that all the parts have the same letters on them.
Are you guys working on the meanings of the symbols (Wormgod said this was useless right?) or trying to convert the letters into sounds/other known letters?
Wormgod was way to vague in what he meant. But, I do think that we should go over what has already been discussed, and based on that come up with new ideas on them or confirm old ones.
Whats great about all this though is its brand new, we know what Constellation has what sign in the Observatory. We know what there names are and such. So its interesting, and there may be more to the Starmap then we realized, look how long it took just to know what each Constellation picture is or what their positions are.
As for the Rhyme about Lady dancing and Lover sighing. We can see that this is probably just a Rhyme that has absolutely nothing to do with the way the Constellations look, but to just memorize the twelve Constellations. Its basically like a "nursery" rhyme. It means nothing except to help memorize the names of the 12 Constellations. So Lady and Lover aren't mixed even though their wallpaintings and the rhyme suggest otherwise. The Stars I took pictures of in Stros M'kai had to have their charges Guardian Rune in the machine before viewing them. The machine had 3 setting, one for each guardians territory. Basically unless I was in the Warriors territory, I would not have been able to view the Lady (whom looks like the lover). That just solidifies that the rhyme was false is their depiction of what each guardian is doing.
In an example we know that from the Firmament the Warrior actually turns his head when one of this charges are threatened. I do not see how the Thief is the one who is watching when one can very plainly see the Warrior is the one who's head actually turns in the stars to look at his charges when they are threatened. In many ways we can see the Rhyme is off in its description of what the Constellations do.
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Edited by Aquiantus (10/05/03 08:34 AM)
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I've been busy with Archeological finds in Stros M'kai. I have come upon alot of Runes that I had initially missed. Especially the Gigantic Runes on the Observatory entrance. <smacks head>
Here it is 18 pics of Runes
http://hometown.aol.com/wizrdaegis/StrosRunes.html
Also added the tail of the Serpent to the Astronomy page.
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Edited by Aquiantus (10/05/03 05:06 AM)
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I added the Serpent to the Signs page. I'm pretty sure the Rune in the telescope view of the Lord and Serpent Tail on the Astronomy page is the Serpent Rune. It looks like "_V"
I also found the Centurion parts you were reffering too. They are definitly Runes aswell. Though the left and head seem to be the exact same the right shoulder seems to be mirrored. Thanks for the suggestions on them. If anyone finds more Runes let me know.
My next step will be to catalog them, and make sure each Rune has its Index number, they are very hard to read sometimes in the pictures, but it is easier when your actually in the game and can rotate the camera some to see exactly what that Rune is.
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Wormgod was way to vague in what he meant.
I thought so at first, but I'm fairly confident that he meant that we shouldn't be trying to apply meaning to the constellational runes from what the constellations could represent; like when you were trying to give meaning to the X15, 5, 7, 9 runes found on the airship plans (post #1828987). Like Evelian said, It could seem promising as Aquaintus has shown, but you can only say so much that way with the constellation runes. Soon you might start saying, "well, in this case, Theif means [this] and Lady could mean [that], but here theif could refer to [this2]." And so on...
But, I do think that we should go over what has already been discussed, and based on that come up with new ideas on them or confirm old ones.
I agree. Here are some (most? all?) of the major points/discoveries/observations/ideas/etc.:
- The most common runes in the Dwemer books we have access to (Egg of Time and Divine Metaphysics) are, in order from most to least common, X15, 5, 25, 16, 14, 10, 4. X26 has the lowest occurence of any rune and might be punctuation.
- There are several transliterated syllables that appear more than others; in no particular order, they are nch, mz, left, ngth, bth, nch, rk.
- U and A seem to be the most common vowels.
- Each constellation is represented by a rune in the Stros M'Kai observatory; it's unknown whether or not the rune is the first of the constellation's full name in Dwemer, or a way of labelling the constellations while viewing the night sky.
- The depictions of the constellations in the Stros M'Kai observatory and Bamz-Amschend's Hearthfire Hall are the same. Moreover, we know that the Dwemer did observe the same constellations as other races, and recognised the three guardian constellations. Along the same vein, there are commonalities between Dwemer artifacts found in Stros M'Kai and Morrowind.
- Cyrus' translation (or, at the least, pronunciation) of the Dwemer runes on the double door is "Shahbth ih awerk. Stuh ndah bthahhrk. Awerd sheh hhhmzrteh."
- WormGod's warning seems to have the implication that we can translate/interpret Dwemeri, at least partially.
- Four runes (X15, 5, 7, 9) appear on several schematics (including the Anumidium schematic) and other Dwemer devices; according to the notes at the end of Chimarvamidium, this is very likely "nchmarthurnidamz". If this is true, then we know at least one rune: X15 (the most common rune) corresponds to the "nch" syllable.
- The first pages of Egg of Time and Divine Metaphysics share several lines in common. They are probably used in different context, as one book supports Kagrenac's plan, and the other argues against it.
Anything to add or subtract? I've probably missed some things. We seem to be stuck here (or else people were enjoying their weekend, the nerve! ).
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I have a question about the beginning of the Egg of Time. Earlier in this thread it was said that it began with "O'Bthuand's" and that Baladas confirmed it. I checked the CS and I could not find that in the dialog. Was it from some interview of sorts?
Also, if we use "O'Bthuand's" as a translation key the subsitiution of
nchmarthurnidamz does not seem to work as the symbol for "nch" and u or a (depending) are the same. From the translation of the door I don't see the "O'Bthuand's" key as working as "Shahbth ih awerk. Stuh ndah bthahhrk. Awerd sheh hhhmzrteh" is the result of 6 (maybe 12) symbols total.
I'd also like to note that the first line (on egg1) of the Egg of Time is identical to the last line (on egg2) except there is a symbol "word" missing (lord I think).
Btw- Not to stray too far off topic but did anyone else note that Nazz spelt "Star Orphans" with the capital letters in his post?
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It wasn't form Baladas. It was some guy over on the Morrowind Summit from loooooooooooooong ago. If it doesn't work, leave it on the sidelines. We may use it later, or it may stay unused indefinitely.
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Ahwha? Oh, so Nael was mistaken then? Alright. I'm usnure about trusting that guy without some form of proof of his claims but I'm hesitant to dismiss it out of hand due to what WormGod said... Maybe we should make a list of Dwemeri words that we know of. That way if we come up with a useable system of translating dwemeri script into dwemeri language we can test it against those words.
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Wormgod was way to vague in what he meant.
I thought so at first, but I'm fairly confident that he meant that we shouldn't be trying to apply meaning to the constellational runes from what the constellations could represent; like when you were trying to give meaning to the X15, 5, 7, 9 runes found on the airship plans (post #1828987). Like Evelian said, It could seem promising as Aquaintus has shown, but you can only say so much that way with the constellation runes. Soon you might start saying, "well, in this case, Theif means [this] and Lady could mean [that], but here theif could refer to [this2]." And so on...
Yeah I wouldn't want to put words into Wormgod's mouth for fear of misinterpreting them. But I think your right that when he said to back up, the more recent posts before his were probably wrong.
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Four runes (X15, 5, 7, 9) appear on several schematics (including the Anumidium schematic) and other Dwemer devices; according to the notes at the end of Chimarvamidium, this is very likely "nchmarthurnidamz". If this is true, then we know at least one rune: X15 (the most common rune) corresponds to the "nch" syllable.
This is the first time i've seen nchmarthurnidamz. If I could find more sources like the editor's notes supposedly says, I would agree. It seems to be that this is the only place I know of the word nchmarthurnidamz. I would however love to see the proof of this editor's words. I would like to see nchmarthunidamz in other written accounts by the Dwemer or on Plans but I haven't yet. If that editor could credit to source by which he found the nchmarthunidamz we might have a better understanding of it.
However, the beginning part of Chi-mar means Change Man though and if Nch-mar means the same thing then Nch is Change and Mar is still man. But, I would really need to get ahold of the nchmarthunidamz that the editor has seen and look at its usage in the sentance structure to determine if we can derive the rest of the meaning of the words.
I'll continue to keep an eye out for this word.
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All right, here's the words and names I know:
Numidium-translates as "Brass God." I would guess -midium means God and Nu means Brass.
Nchuleft-name of a freehold
Leftunch-undisclosed location
Nahmarthurnidamz-unknown word found in many Dwemer plans; possibly Heart of Lorkhan
Kagrenac-chief Tonal Architect
Bthuand-Tonal Architect
Dahrk Mezalf-minor assitant to Kagrenac
Illkurok-spear that grants speed and night vision; if it follows the form of Volengdrung and Vvardenfel, Illku(r) means spear and (r)ok means (maybe) shadows/night
Volendrung-"Hammer of Might," Volen being hammer, and drung being might
fel-"city"
Dumac-king
Vvarden-strong shield
Rourken-a clan that departed Vvardenfell
Also, any name of a Dwemer ruin. Aldmer words may be used as well. Additional info
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Ahwha? Oh, so Nael was mistaken then? Alright. I'm usnure about trusting that guy without some form of proof of his claims but I'm hesitant to dismiss it out of hand due to what WormGod said... Maybe we should make a list of Dwemeri words that we know of. That way if we come up with a useable system of translating dwemeri script into dwemeri language we can test it against those words.
Thats a great Idea - just when you list the words - please give a brief comment behind them - such as from Chimarvimidium book etc etc
I could make a small page that lists all the names as we come across them in Alpha, and then list their relavent locations, like in this book or that quest, or ruins found south west of Balmora etc etc.
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For locations in Morrowind and Tribunal this is what I got. I also named any interrior cells or parts of that Dwemer Ruin based on TES. Also some of these are renamed by their new owners.
Aleft - S Gnaar Mok
Andre Maul's Tower - Dwarven tower turned into living quarters. Just N of Dagon Fel
Arkngthand - main quest - East of Balmora
1. Cells of Hollow Hand
2. Deep Ore Passage
3. Hall of Centrifuge
4. Heaven's Gallery
5. Land's Blood Gallery
6. Weepingbell Hall
Arkngthunch-Sturdumz - Mage guild quest to retrieve Dwemer Tube - NW Gnisis
Bamz-Amschend - Tribunal
1. Hall of Wails
2. Hall of Winds
3. Hearthfire Hall
4. King's Walk
5. Passage of the Walker
6. Passage of Whispers
7. Radac's Forge
8. Skybreak Gallery
Bthanchend - inside Ghostfence
Bthuand - inside Ghostfence
Bthungthumz - Telvanni quest to recieve ring of Dahrk Mezalf - Location - SW Urshilaku Camp
Dagoth Ur's Citadel - inside Ghostfence
1. Facility Cavern
2. Inner Facility
3. Inner Tower
4. Lower Facility
5. Outer Facility
Endusal - Kagrenac's study - inside Ghostfence
Galom Daeus - W of Tel Uvirith
1. Entry
2. Observatory
Gnisis Egg Mine - Has a Dwemer Ruin inside - the name I believe is Leftunch
1. Bethamez
Mudan Grotto - SW Ebonheart
1. Lost Dwemer Checkpoint
Mzanchend - NW of Tel Uvirith
Mzanch - S of Suran
1. Lower level
Mzuleft - Mage Quest for plans for a Dwemer Scarab. - SW Dagon Fel
Nchardahrk - South of Dagon Fel
Nchardumz - NE of Molag Mar
1. Lower level
Nchuleft - SW Tel Vos
Nchuleftingth - Mage quest - NW Molag Mar
1. Lower Levels
2. Test of Pattern
3. Upper Levels
Nchurdamz - NW Shrine of Azura
1. Interior
Odrosal - inside Ghostfence
1. Dwemer Training Academy
2. Tower
Sorkvild's tower - Imperial Cult quest - assassinate the necromaner inside this dwarven ruins that has Masque of Clavicus Vile - East of Dagon Fel
Tureynulal - inside Ghostfence
1. Bladder of Clovis
2. Eye of Duggan
3. Eye of Thom Wye
4. Kagrenac's Library
Vacant Tower - home of Khargol gro-Boguk - on outskirts of Dagon Fel
Vemynal - inside Ghostfence
1. Hall of Torque
2. outer Fortress
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Ahwha? Oh, so Nael was mistaken then?
Mistaken about what? What'd I say?
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Here's the webpage I built for the Dwemer words. If you find more Dwemer words let me know i'll add them to it.
http://hometown.aol.com/wizrdaegis/DwemerLanguage.html
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Here's something to think about
Lady is the 5th month Hearthfire with the Rune X07
there is Bamz-Amschend, "Hearthfire" Hall
another thing, outside of Stros M'kai near the other doors (there were 2) is a giant Lady symbol by herself.
You also see lady symbols on those shields, the golem plans, the airship plans and a number of other places.
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It's best to disregard the name of the Red Mountain citadels. Their names were changed to reflect their masters.
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This:
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This is true and Baladas Demnevanni confirms this as well. Unless Baladas is wrong that is...
I couldn't find where he says it in the CS so I asked about it...
Now here's something:
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Nchardumz - NE of Molag Mar
and
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Nchurdamz - NW Shrine of Azura
They are both very similar to one another and both begin and end with "nch" and "damz" like "nchmarthurnidamz." So if "nch" is one character and "damz" is another character maybe "ur" and "ar" are characters as well or maybe "a" and "u" are characters and when they are followed by a character that begins with a "d" an r is inserted between them... sorta like "Nchardahrk (Nch-ar-dahrk)."
Hmmm...
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However, the beginning part of Chi-mar means Change Man though and if Nch-mar means the same thing then Nch is Change and Mar is still man. But, I would really need to get ahold of the nchmarthunidamz that the editor has seen and look at its usage in the sentance structure to determine if we can derive the rest of the meaning of the words.
It's very likely that "chimar" isn't related to "Chimer", except by spelling. Unless, of course, it's a Dwemeri spelling of "Chimer". Also, chimarvamidium ends in midium. So does Numidium. Would it be possible that these are Dunmeri or Cyrodiilic corruptions of the Dwemeri word? I get the feeling it means something like "animunculus" or "automaton". We have "chimarvamidium", a golem that was given to the Chimer. And we have (A)Numidium, the Brass God. Could there be a connection?
As for usage of nchmarthurnidamz in a sentence, so far as I can tell there isn't one, at least not in Egg of Time or Divine Metaphysics. But you have highlighted it several times on this page (the Ritual-Shadow-Lady-Golem sequence). It appears on the octagon, airship plans and Anumidium plans. We don't conclusively know that it is nchmarthurnidamz, but it is one of the more concrete leads that we do have.
Also, not to nitpick, but Bthuand is north of the Ghostfence (I wouldn't have said anything but it's one of my ruins for GDR).
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It's very likely that "chimar" isn't related to "Chimer", except by spelling. Unless, of course, it's a Dwemeri spelling of "Chimer".
I don't think that there's any real connection between 'chimar' and 'Chimer' in the original Dwemeri meaning. Marobar Sul attempted to make this same connection, which was rejected by serious scholars of the Dwemer.
This is an excerpt from the 'Publisher's Note' in 'Chimarvamidium';
'"Chimarvamidium" may be the Dwemer "Nchmarthurnidamz."
This word occurs several times in plans of Dwemer armor and Animunculi, but it's meaning is not known.
It is almost certainly not "Hope of the Chimer," however.'
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Also, chimarvamidium ends in midium. So does Numidium. Would it be possible that these are Dunmeri or Cyrodiilic corruptions of the Dwemeri word?
I am fascinated by this idea, although Wormgod's comments still trouble me. What the heck though, I'll go down that route and see where it leads.
The publisher of Marobar Sul's Tales tells us that 'chimarvamidium' may be (a corruption of) the Dwemeris 'nchmarthurnidamz'.
First of all, I can only assume that there exists, among a privileged few scholars, a knowledge of the correct phonetics and modern Tamrielic spelling of sounds associated with Dwemeri runes.
This appears to be the basis of 'Favoril's Dwarven Lore' which allowed Cyrus to correctly spell out the runes that he read on the doors at the Stros M'kai stronghold and gain access. Also, if this was not the case, Marobar Sul's scholarly publisher would have no way of knowing the pronunciation and Tamrielic spelling for the runes he and contemporary colleagues had read as the word 'nchmarthurnidamz' on Dwemeri plans and such.
Next, the story of Chimarvamidium takes place during the Dwemer/Chimer wars and so, apart from the Dwemer themselves, the only people to witness these events and know the name that the Dwemer gave to the golem/armour were the Chimer.
I take it therfore that this is where the common corruption of pronunciation, and later Tamrielic spelling, of the word as 'chimarvamidium' first occurred.
The Numidium was another (later) Dwemeri creation which the Chimer were the first outsiders to observe and so it is likely that they recognised the same 'midium' affix of a Dwemeris word that described this artifact and continued with their corruption of its pronunciation.
So let's take a close look at how the original word could have become corrupted. Separating the syllables we have:-
Code:
nch mar thur ni damz
chi mar va mi di um
The first thing I have noticed is the 'ch' that appears at the beginning of both words. The Chimeri pronunciation of 'ch' was as a "k".
'Chimer... is KY-mare' (Michael Kirkbride, 'Obscured Texts', TIL)
Hence, for the Chimer to have misunderstood this syllable, 'nch' must have been pronounced with a "nk" sound, as in 'drink'.
Placing this article at the start of a word, as it is in 'nchmarthurnidamz' might have rendered the "n" quite silent to unfamiliar ears, so "nchmar..." would have sounded to the Chimer as "k'mar..." which they took to be 'chimar...' and it was recorded like this in the Chimeri and/or Aldmeris versions of the account.
I feel that it is likely that the 'thur' to 'va' and 'ni' to 'mi' were due to similar issues with the Chimer grasping the complex enunciation of Dwemeris.
The 'damz' syllable is particularly interesting. The insertion of a vowel sound breaking it into "di-um" suggests that its original pronunciation was with a heavily accented "eeyah" sound, as in "yam" or "yarn", and a gentle, almost silent "z", like "sh" (similar to Russian), hence "d'yam(sh)".
Now, where am I going with all of this?
Well, assuming I am on a straight enough path and that the corruption occurred in a manner something close to this, the affix 'midium' is most likely to be an inherited corruption of the Dwemeris 'nidamz'.
Isolating this from the rest of the original term offered by Marobar Sul's publisher gives us four distinct possible articles or 'words' to assign to the four Dwemeri runes that we think might spell this Dwemeris word;
Code:
nch mar thur nidamz
Ritual Shadow Lady Golem
I will conclude by briefly taking a closer look at the last of these, 'nidamz'. We know from this process of examination that this may be the rune or sound that the Chimer interpreted as 'midium'.
As Vireyar touched upon, this rune is applied to the Golem (Atronach) constellation and also appears in the name given to the massive Dwemeri automaton Anumidium. Basilisk has also suggested that the name Nu-midium may mean 'Brass God', which is fair.
This is the section of 'Skeleton Man's Interview', that the term Brass God comes from;
'Some of the scholars of the land speak of the "Brass God", however in all my travels through Tamriel I have heard little on this subject. What can you tell me of this?
Xal, a Human Maruhkati, Port Telvanis:
Ah. I will tell you the truth, because you will believe none of it. The Brass God is Anumidum, the Prime Gestalt. He is also called the divine skin.'
So we can see that the name 'Anu-midium' might also be interpreted as 'divine skin'. In this context, it is useful to note that 'Anu' is the almost universally recognised name for the divine pole of Stasis, the original substance of all divine beings.
Due to its importance and pre-eminence, I suggest that it is almost certain that the term 'Anu' comes directly from the Ehlnofex, from which all mortal languages are derived. It would therefore be entirely consistent for the Dwemer to have used this term, or a close derivation, as a stem meaning divinity or godhood.
So, there you have it. 'Anumidium' or 'Anumidum' may actually be 'Anunidamz', meaning 'divine skin'. From this we take it that 'nidamz' (the 'Golem' rune) may in fact mean 'skin' with connotations of metal construction and/or armour.
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Hmm, an interesting idea. "Now we must go and misinterpret this."
Also on the compilation of Dwemer and Dwemer-related words, the Earth Bones is another name for the Ehlnofey. Their deaths are what created the laws of nature.
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Edited by TSBasilisk (10/07/03 08:32 PM)
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I am fascinated by this idea, although Wormgod's comments still trouble me. What the heck though, I'll go down that route and see where it leads.
And I in turn am extremely fascinated by yours. I hadn't considered Anumidium to possibly be a reference to Anu - foolish as it sounds, I thought the A was tacked on to differentiate between Dagoth Ur's creation and the original. I also hadn't made the connection between the Golem constellation and its rune.
I don't find it unlikely that the rune assigned to each constellation means something by itself; plenty of languages do have one-letter or -symbol words. Maybe WormGod warned us against using the connotations of each constellation as a means of interpreting its corresponding rune, as opposed to considering that the rune assigned to each constellation might actually mean something.
If I may be so hasty, brilliant analysis.
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That is very interesting indeed! However, does knowing how the letters are pronounced get us any closer to translating the books themselves? Perhaps not, but the correlation between the two words is very interesting.
One thing I noticed was regarding the Steed star sign... It's representation is a Scarab - the Dwemer sign of Lorkhan. It is quite possible that the Dwemer gave their own names to the constellations. I don't know if that helps anyone, but I thought it was interesting enough to share.
-Striker
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Also, not to nitpick, but Bthuand is north of the Ghostfence (I wouldn't have said anything but it's one of my ruins for GDR).
Its ok hehe, it was a clerical error that needed to be fixed.
I fixed that, I also did like TSBasilisk suggested. I removed the non-dwemer named (except for egg-mine cause wasn't sure if Bethemaz was Dwemeri or not). I moved them down below to most likely non-dwemer names. If we later find out Endusal or some of the other Dagoth citadels are Dwemeri then i'll just move um up top.
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I think you guys are onto something with the Chimarvamidium. Upon reflection, I believe that it is highly unlikely that the editor of Marabor Sul's book would be himself, instead of him making those editor's note up to promote his book like I had thought previously. That would lead me to believe someone with knowledge of Altmeri/Dwemeri language was trying to decipher Marabur Sul's meaning.
Here is why I now have second thoughts that it wasn't a hoax on Marabor Sul's part to promote his book.
In the editor's notes he mentions this -
"In a rare scholarly moment, Marobar Sul leaves a few pieces of the original story intact, such as parts of the original line in Aldmeris, "A Dwemer of eight can create a golem, but an eight of Dwemer can become one."
Marabor Sul wrote this in the book -
"A Dwemer child of eight can create a golem," he explained. "But only a truly great warrior and armorer can pretend to be one."
What this means is that "truly great warrior" somehow means eight. If you look at the constellation Star Map you will see that the 8th constellation is the Warrior.
This lead me to conclude, that Marabor Sul knows more then even the scholars, who have said he was not a trusted source. Marabor Sul at the very least knows that the Dwemer constellations are one in the same as the known consellations firmament.
This also means that in the Dwemer language, that the rune(s) that mean eight are also those that mean warrior. This also means that their language has various meanings based on context like shown as "Dwemer of eight" and "eight of Dwemer." Where eight would both me 8 and Warrior depending on usage.
Which also means that the Starmap can be used a key to the meaning of numerical words such as eight. Though, only as one of the meaning of the rune(s) of eight. There may be several meanings not just the numerical value and contellation. This could mean their language is a "Protean" value. Having several different meaning depending on its use.
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Here are a few curve balls for you.
I think that Marabor Sul's translation was that he did know how to translate it, but not a full translation. So he made something up that related to "One changing" in Altmeri. If you link that into what the book is about, it would be like saying "One who switches sides" or something to that effect cause he didn't get a full translation otherwise one who speaks Altmeri would have been able to translate "vamidium" into its proper words/syllables. So he probably didn't translate it fully as Nigedo suggested, or got some of the syllables/words wrong by using them in the wrong context or pronouncing them wrongly.
Also, as a minor note on Marabor Sul's written stories, he does tend to exagerate the meaning. For instance the constellation Warrior in his text was meant as "truly great warrior" aswell as you can see he added on words like 'child' after the Dwemer word when it should have simply been "Dwemer of eight" according to the editor.
I do however believe that t |
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