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pozzo
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Okay. I'm no Lore Master. Or Master of anything, but I thought I'd might give this a try.
The topic is divided into two (linked) parts, and both appear in the 36 Lessons of Vivec, whihc is, as you will see, the main point of reference for my study.
Quote:
The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec: Sermon Six
Six are the formulas to heaven by violence, one that you have learned by studying these words.
1.The Father is a machine and the mouth of a machine. His only mystery is an invitation to elaborate further.
2.The Mother is active and clawed like a nix-hound, yet she is the holiest of those that reclaim their days.
3.The Son is myself, Vehk, and I am unto three, six, nine, and the rest that come after, glorious and sympathetic, without borders, utmost in the perfections of this world and the others, sword and symbol, pale like gold.
4.There is a fourth kind of philosophy that uses nothing but disbelief.
5.For by the sword I mean the sensible.
6.For by the word I mean the dead.
I have colllected the first 6 statements Vivec makes, in order to present one set of 6 steps to reaching heaven thorugh violence.
The first three points describe the tribunal, who have already "reached heaven", through a kind of violence: striking the heart of Lorkhan with Sunder and Keening.
The fourth point could describe the Dwemer method of "misunderstanding"; I think (though I could be wrong) that one of Baladas' descriptions of the Dwemer's dissapearance revolves around thier constant mis-understanding of the divine.
The fifth and sixth points describe Vivec's simultanoes qualities; his/her poetic and bi-polar opposite, his/her warrior. They could also represent logic and wisdom, the sword and the word AlSO appear frequently in other sermons (see later). This might show that Wisdom and Logic (Knowledge/understanding) are necessary in "Reaching heaven by violence"
All in all, i think that these points could show the old ways of reading divinity. By violence here, it means as an act of violence, eg against the laws of the Mundus. To clarify, violating either the earth bones, the will of the daedra or an enlightenment of some sort...(like buddhism? this is a LONG shot...sorta meditation/wisdomness??)
That is one interpretation (mine!!)...and might allow different answers for other people.
Next: the main reference to reaching heaven by violence:
Quote:
The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec: Sermon Sixteen
'Reach heaven by violence then.'
There, Nerevar was greeted by the Parliament of Craters, who knew him by title and resented his presence, for he was to be a ruling king of earth and this was the lunar realm. They shifted around him in a pattern of entrapment.
'The moon does not recognize crowns or scepters,' they said, 'nor the representatives of kingdoms below, lion or serpent or mathematician. We are the graves of those that have migrated and become ancient countries. We seek no Queens or thrones. Your appearance is decidedly solar, which is to say a library of stolen ideas. We are neither tear nor sorrow. Our revolution succeeded in the manner that is was written. You are the Hortator and unwelcome here.'
And so Nerevar carved at the grave ghosts until he was out of breath and their Parliament could make no new laws.
He said, 'I am not of the slaves that perish.'
Of the members of Parliament only a few survived the Hortator's attack.
A surviving Crater said, 'Appropriation is nothing new. Everything happens of itself. This motif is by no means unassociated with hero myths. You have not acted with the creative impulse; you fall below the weight of destiny. We are graves but not coffins. Know the difference. You have only dug more and supplied no ghosts to reside within. Central to your claim is the predominance of frail events. To be judged by the earth is to sit on a throne of wonder why. Damage us more and you will find naught but the absence of our dead.'
This is obscure in the sense that Nerevar just "does" it; he is told to visit the moons. But could it have greater implications?
If we take the Moons to represent Lorhkans sundered body. The remaining parliament of craters says
Quote:
Damage us more and you will find naught but the absence of our dead
The implications are quite obscure, one has to infere heavily, but I feel they are making some comment on how Larkhans body is still active, and/or isn't "there", i.e is somewhere else. On Nirn?
(i know that was OT, but I found it interesting  )
Next: Sermon Sixteen (I also wanted to point out that all the sermons involing the Sixth Path have 6 in them...i know, a rediculous point)
Quote:
The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec: Sermon Seventeen
The Hortator was still trying to subdue the heavens with an axe. He was thrown out of the library of the sun by the power of Magnus. Vivec found him in a grub field outside of the swamps of the Deshaan Plain. They walked for a span in silence, for Nerevar had been humbled and Vivec still had mercy in his hand.
Vivec knew that his doubt made him the sword of the Triune and so he did not feel shame or fear.
In this world and others EIGHTEEN less one (the victor) is the magical disk, hurled to reach heaven by violence.
Trying to subdue heaven with an Axe (the Hortator's favoured weapon) is perhaps another way of phrasing Reaching Heaven by Violence.
Vivec's admittance of the doubt "making him the sword of the tribunal" is another quality of Logic- The Sword is associated with Logic and critical thinking, (in "reality" anyway...) and the ability to see your own flaws. Is this one of the Steps to Reach Heaven through Violence?
Quote:
In this world and others EIGHTEEN less one (the victor) is the magical disk, hurled to reach heaven by violence.
This is the most interesting thing I have found, connecting with the Daedra Aedra spoke idea, the not-holding center, Auri-El's arrow with Lorhkan's heart. And three times Six, the paths of each of the tribunal. Eeek!!! Metaphor madness.
"Less one" possibilities:
Lorhkhan, One (as a number, odd, change, Padhomay), the "I" that gets talked about. It could even refer to the demon that is slain by Vivec's writing of His Book of Hours. Or Nerevar.
If it was Lorkhan (NOTE his "victory" ) then we could see his Goal as trying to make mer/men divine. (note...heavy Stab in the dark).
Nerevar would make more sense, though not much of this does. He is described as 1, as is the Sharmat Dagoth Ur. (remember 1 plus 1 = 11; bad number). He gets hurled to heaven, and engages in much violence. Just an idea.
In conclusion, i think the "Six Paths" described in the Sermons are actually three...(doubled because of Vivec's Biploar nature)
1: Disbelief (mis-understanding- the path the Dwemer Took)
2: The Sword (confusing one; Logic? something Psijjic? Mindless Crater destruction? Who knows...)
3: The Word (Knowledge/understanding...or even:
"GHARTOK PADHOME GHARTOK PADHOME.
HERMA-MORA-ALTADOON! AE ALTADOON!'
GULGA MOR JIL HYAET AE HOOM.
GHARTOK PADHOME [CHIM] AE ALTADOON"
Lots of secret Dunmer words. There is a reference to magick words in the Sermon Zero.
Quote:
RPDXGBWGHPZBXLOdZaZeXLdCIBNGJZereZDQOPhtHVVeKVPrCSa
NYyehBtCdInMZGaJRVeRrMGZuGCCIsHTZaLVeRFOrPZPKBPtORsKI
iONhXTtPKFgHTVOnolJRVJEeZVKWQIbHVCMNnoIivFiVMlYVCBbCVV
FoDIdInWaWIrLZVeVCMmewNIdGYIeKhTNtZTVoXVDKZt
Here the true key lies. Vivec is the lesser or false key.
For in the beginning was the Word: Spoken by a Great Ape.
For in the beginning was the Word: Three by Seventy-two.
For in the beginning was the Word: ALMSIVI.
...
So that could be the word part.
But I am convinced that "reaching Heaven by Violence" referes to an act against the natural order of things that will result in enlightenment or Divinity or whatever "Heaven" represents.
Blimey.
So I will stop there. Phew!!!
I'm sure I make no sense, but neither did the Dwemer..actually they did. Oh well.
Please don't let my madness scare you from responding... 
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Subtle bearer of the Cup of Face Snaked Ayem, Child of the Hall with Many Odd Angles.
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
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morly_the_great
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Please don't let my madness scare you from responding...
Don't demoralise yourself, you do make sense.
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morly_the_great
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Quote:
Please don't let my madness scare you from responding...
Don't demoralise yourself, you do make sense.
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~World's Most Funniest High Rated Post Ever~... Seriously... It Is.
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Oh my! Are you sure that wisdom and logic are prerequisites? Logic is, after all, one of the 8 lies...
As for wisdom, the final fate of the Tribunal should tell you that this is nothing like what most men call wisdom.
Other than that, you're on the right track.
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Interesting.
I am not very adept at interpreting the sermons of Vehk, but I think you have done well with this one. They are so vauge that a million conclusions can be brought by the first word, and so it seems useless to try and find meaning in them, as surley finding a needle in a stack full of needles is more approachable.
Still an excellent elaboration though nothing can be brought from it logicly.
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drakkarDVG
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Your theory sounds good. Although I have to say, I didn't think much of the sermons meant anything when I first read them. Or on further reading. I thought that Vehk was trying to make himself look smart, by seemingly going over the heads of everyone. Not smart so much as... divine? Yeah, thats the ticket.
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Seen any elves?
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That's an easy mistake to make. The thing is, the sermons DO mean something. They usually mean something on several different levels. Always at least three. On the lowest level, they're delightful blather, which is what you're seeing. On the most reductionist level, they're a code. And those words have a meaning when you read them, surprise surprise... they're not just random language.
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Nigedo
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pozzo,
Thank you for attempting this paper.
I agree that you are right to start with Sermon 6, where we are instructed;
Proceed only with the simplest terms, for all others are enemies and will confuse you.
Six are the formulas to heaven by violence, one that you have learned by studying these words.
[edit]
Six are the walking ways, from enigma to enemy to teacher.
You will find more about these six ways, or 'paths' as they are also described, within Sermons 8, 20, 23, 27, 32, 35 and 36.
Quite rightly in my opinion, you concluded here;
Quote:
By violence here, it means as an act of violence, eg against the laws of the Mundus. To clarify, violating either the earth bones, the will of the daedra or an enlightenment of some sort...
However, the account of the Hortator attempting to 'subdue the heavens with an axe' shows that, initially at least, he failed to grasp this teaching. I will explain further.
In Sermon 15, Vivec presents the Hortator with the final of the 'three lessons of ruling kings'. Here, Vivec warns him of the dangers of the 'wrong walking path' and commissions the Hortator to 'reach heaven by violence'.
Shortly after this time (Sermon 16) the Hortator becomes concerned that, though he does not yet grasp their meaning fully, he must keep Vivec's lessons in his mind as they were taught to him, which is becoming increasingly difficult.
This worries and frustrates the Hortator; so, he goes to his master to seek further guidance, saying 'I am afraid to become slipshod in my thinking.' Vivec responds by 'helpfully' repeating to him, 'Reach heaven by violence then.' (with all the implications of that response to that request for help).
So, in deeper frustration and keen now to distract his mind from these anxieties, the Hortator chooses to apply the words of Vivec literally and, selecting an axe, heads for the moons first.
There, Nerevar was greeted by the Parliament of Craters, who knew him by title and resented his presence, for he was to be a ruling king of earth and this was the lunar realm. They shifted around him in a pattern of entrapment.
[edit]
And so Nerevar carved at the grave ghosts until he was out of breath and their Parliament could make no new laws.
He said, 'I am not of the slaves that perish.'
Of the members of Parliament only a few survived the Hortator's attack.
A surviving Crater said, 'Appropriation is nothing new. Everything happens of itself. This motif is by no means unassociated with hero myths.
You have not acted with the creative impulse; you fall below the weight of destiny.
We are graves but not coffins. Know the difference. You have only dug more and supplied no ghosts to reside within.
Central to your claim is the predominance of frail events. To be judged by the earth is to sit on a throne of wonder why. Damage us more and you will find naught but the absence of our dead.'
Here we see that Nerevar grasps the problem that Vivec has posed to him, when he declares, "I am not of the slaves that perish". But the surviving crater understands that the Hortator has failed to appreciate the subtlety of Vivec's message and responds, "You have not acted with the creative impulse; you fall below the weight of destiny."
I think that your comments about the crater's other words are certainly valid, pozzo;
Quote:
The implications are quite obscure, one has to infere heavily, but I feel they are making some comment on how Larkhans body is still active, and/or isn't "there", i.e is somewhere else. On Nirn?
Moreover, before the meeting turns to violence, the craters have already assured the Hortator that they 'are neither tear nor sorrow', effectively saying, "we and this mission are not remotely useful to you."
It is important, and not at all out of place, that the surviving crater directs the Hortator to consider the moons' lack of dead, in the context of him attempting to 'reach heaven by violence'.
In Sermon 17, the Hortator's bid to 'subdue the heavens' is brought to an abrupt end by Magnus. Back again on the Mundus, Vivec finds the Hortator in a dejected state and takes pity on him, understanding the Hortator's limitations. He decides to lead him to the reaches of the Mundus, under the guise of learning new and alien fighting styles, which Vivec knows the Hortator will enjoy and appreciate.
In truth, Vivec plans to help the Hortator to grasp the rudiments of understanding the first walking way, the most violent of the 'formulas to heaven by violence'.
They walked for a span in silence, for Nerevar had been humbled and Vivec still had mercy in his hand.
Soon they were walking across the eastern sea to the land of snakes and snow demons. Vivec wanted to show the Hortator the fighting styles of foreign tongues.
They learned the idiom stroke from the pillow book of the Tsaesci king. It is shaped like the insight of this page. The Tsaesci serpents vowed to have their vengeance on the west at least three times.
They walked farther and saw the spiked waters at the edge of the map.
Here the spirit of limitation gifted them with a spoke and bade them find the rest of the wheel.
[edit]
In this world and others EIGHTEEN less one (the victor) is the magical disk, hurled to reach heaven by violence.
You commented about the possibility of what 'less one' could mean, pozzo, saying;
Quote:
Lorhkhan, One (as a number, odd, change, Padhomay), the "I" that gets talked about.
I agree with this point, in absolute numerological terms (Sermon 29), 1 represents the Tower, or the individual. Lorkhan was the first to appreciate that the tower and the indvidual can be one.
You said finally;
Quote:
I am convinced that "reaching Heaven by Violence" referes to an act against the natural order of things that will result in enlightenment or Divinity or whatever "Heaven" represents.
and I agree with your point here completely.
I hope that you now have some further insights for your research and I will look forward to reading the next (and likely final) draft of your paper, with which I whole-heartedly encourage you to continue.  
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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Alli,
I don't want to wander OT, but "Logic is, after all, one of the 8 lies..." could you please explain this?
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Nigedo: Julianos.
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pozzo
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Okay. This is a revision of what I had previously posted; having reviewed large parts, and made some changed. Also, there is less crazyness and more concluding. At least that is my idea.
And my have repetitions too...as i want to be able to post it as a complete paper.
Firstly, the 36 sermons can provide useful answers regarding the Six Walking ways:
Quote:
Six are the formulas to heaven by violence, one that you have learned by studying these words
this is the first time the Six walking ways are mentioned, and referes to the first of these ways;- Studying either the content Sermon 6 in particular or the entirity of them.
Sermon Six has other significant information regarding these Walking Ways;-
Quote:
Six are the walking ways, from enigma to enemy to teacher.
Which links to an earlier statement in the same sentence;-
Quote:
Proceed only with the simplest terms, for all others are enemies and will confuse you
The linkage is rather obscure, but simply (!) put:
Complex terms are described as enemies. "They will confuse you". This connects to the idea of being an enemy and an engima, and describes the qualities of the Six walking ways. So in other words, and rather abtractly, the First Walking way is complex terms, or COMPLEXITY.
Coincidentally
Quote:
enigma to enemy to teacher
Might also refer to Mephala, Boethiah and Azura in that order. And/or the Tribunal.
Next (although they aren't in any order)
Quote:
In this cloister you have discovered one walking path, hilled like a sword but more coarsened. So edged it is that it has to be whispered to keep the tongue from bleeding, where its signs evacuate their former meanings, like empires that tarry too long.
This passage from Sermon 20 refers to the Whirling school, and how, after Vehk's dissasembling/shattering of the monster Moon Axle, Velothi philosophers studied his "lines" and discovered another Walking Path.
This could imply several things; The Walking Path involves philosophy on something dissasembled (...dwemer stylee mis-understanding?).
OR
The walking Path is the knowledge of turning "lines" presumably some sort of "crystalised rule" into a wheel, the image intrinsically associated with the universe. Understanding of the universe? The spoke idea is connected with various parts of Tamrielic high philosophy...Psijic, Velothi ect.
I remember reading somewhere that the Daedra have a knack of ignoring time and moving to oblivion (i'm sorry about the lack of clarity on this). Perhaps the 2nd walking way is this technique...forgetting/ignoring time?
Anyway, aside from possible non-sense.
The second way is mentionedin 23, but only as a method for gaining the third.
Quote:
'I give you an ancient road tempered by the second walking way. Your hands must be huge to wield any sword the size of an ancient road, and yet he who is of right stature may irritate the sun with only a stick.'
As the eighth spoke of the wheel of the Sermon of the sword (gotta luv the "of the"s), it would seem to be a summary. The second way is hinted at here...to iritate the sun with a stick. Now later i will go into an analysis on Reaching Heaven by violence..see my previous post for a more in-depth analysis. Irritating the sun ( a natural Law) is an indicator for the a Walking Way.
To be of the right stature could refer to a physical state, but i feel that it links to the idea of "right thinking". If one "completes" the 2nd path, and thinks or observes in the "right" way, he will have enough "stature" to irritate the earth bones/natural law.
The third is also described in Sermon 27.
Quote:
'The third walking path explores hysteria without fear. The efforts of madmen are a society of itself, but only if they are written. The wise may substitute one law for another, even into incoherence, and still say he is working within a method. This is true of speech and extends to all scripture.'
"hysteria without fear" relates to the idea of being mentally "big enough" to handle the metaphysical road of the third path. Road to me indicates a sword, a spear, a magician's wand in the...inspiration and fire, logic and reason. This quote could also indicate the insight gained through hysteria, controlled and fearless...a sort of divine trance. Whirling Dervishes???
Way no. 4
Quote:
'The sage who is not an anvil: a conventional sentence and nothing more. By which I mean dead, the fourth walking way.'
this extract is taken from sermon 32.
I found it hard to interpret withou bludgeoning the delicate metaphor and subtlety. But here we go anyway.
Dead referes to gone, ultimately to 0, the whole or the hole. The disk of the Universe, the Circle of Akatosh. The interpretations are vaguest here.
"A conventional sentence", indicates simplicity. If complexity was the first walking way, then the fourth walking way referes to becoming or being "dead, conventional". This has two possibilities:
That in death, one becomes a powerful ancestral spirit and reaches heaven by violence that way (though this is a contradiction in terms)
That through Death, conventional dying, one doesn't. And breaks the law/rule/earth bone of death thereby reaching "heaven" through "violence".
I could, of course, be missing the point of Vivec's lesson completely. But I found it quite difficult to interpret.
Could "'The sage who is not an anvil" refere to one who seeks to walk the paths? Sage=wisdom=enlightenment.
The Fifth Path:
This is the most hidden of the 6, and the only direct reference is nestled in the following text from Sermon 35
Quote:
The Scripture of Love:
'The formulas of proper Velothi magic continue in ancient tradition, but that virility is dead, by which I mean at least replaced. Truth owes its medicinal nature to the establishment of the myth of justice. Its curative properties it likewise owes to the concept of sacrifice. Princes, chiefs, and angels all subscribe to the same notion. This is a view primarily based on a prolific abolition of an implied profanity, seen in ceremonies, knife fighting, hunting, and the exploration of the poetic. On the ritual of occasions, which comes to us from the days of the cave glow, I can say nothing more than to loosen your equation of moods to lunar currency. Later, and by that I mean much, much later, my reign will be seen as an act of the highest love, which is a return from the astral destiny and the marriages between. By that I mean the catastrophes, which will come from all five corners. Subsequent are the revisions, differentiated between hope and the distraught, situations that are only required by the periodic death of the immutable. Cosmic time is repeated: I wrote of this in an earlier life. An imitation of submersion is love's premonition, its folly into the underworld, by which I mean the day you will read about outside of yourself in an age of gold. For on that day, which is a shadow of the sacrificial concept, all history is obliged to see me for what you are: in love with evil. To keep one's powers intact at such a stage is to allow for the existence of what can only be called a continual spirit. Make of your love a defense against the horizon. Pure existence is only granted to the holy, which comes in a myriad of forms, half of them frightening and the other half divided into equal parts purposeless and assured. Late is the lover that comes to this by any other walking way than the fifth, which is the number of the limit of this world. The lover is the highest country and a series of beliefs. He is the sacred city bereft of a double. The uncultivated land of monsters is the rule. This is clearly attested by ANU and his double, which love knows never really happened. Similarly, all the other symbols of absolute reality are ancient ideas ready for their graves, or at least the essence of such. This scripture is directly ordered by the codes of Mephala, the origin of sex and murder, defeated only by those who take up those ideas without my intervention. The religious elite is not a tendency or a correlation. They are dogma complemented by the influence of the untrustworthy sea and the governance of the stars, dominated at the center by the sword, which is nothing without a victim to cleave unto. This is the love of God and he would show you more: predatory but at the same time instrumental to the will of critical harvest, a scenario by which one becomes as he is, of male and female, the magic hermaphrodite. Mark the norms of violence and it barely registers, suspended as it is by treaties written between the original spirits. This should be seen as an opportunity, and in no way tedious, though some will give up for it is easier to kiss the lover than become one. The lower regions crawl with these souls, caves of shallow treasures, meeting in places to testify by way of extension, when love is only satisfied by a considerable (incalculable) effort.'
The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
Wow. Some text. But the obscurer it gets, the more meaning can be divined: here, it seems that the fifth path is Love. (this may be a horrid butchering of the original message)
Love, by divine love (witness Arkay and Mara...although this is contested)?
The passage has some interesting points regarding this path:
Quote:
Make of your love a defense against the horizon
Is the horizon a metaphor for the concept of time in the Mundus? Defeating time through Love.
Quote:
Pure existence is only granted to the holy, which comes in a myriad of forms
If Pure Existance is the "Heaven" often spoken about, then it would appear the Love's emphasis here is divine Love/Pious Love. Love does contain some of the Key aspects to- which Vivec is associated with- Courtship (Sex), bipolaity of emotion ect. That was a side note.
Quote:
My Love is under your will only
This Path could have (and I'm being v. cynical) been included to ensure the Hortator's faith.
Finally, the last walking way is revealed in perhaps the clearest of the Sermons...no. 36.
Quote:
Each of the aspects of the ALMSIVI then rose up together, combining as one, and showed the world the sixth path. Ayem took from the star its fire, Seht took from it its mystery, and Vehk took from it its feet
This reference is very blatant, and needs little interpretation on my part: The abuse of the Heart of Lorkhan, and the sequential transformation of the Tribunal. This is the Sixth Path.
Or is it? "combining as one, and showed the world the sixth path." Could imply that "teamwork" and cooperation is a way to reach heaven by violence. I wouldn't choose that interpretation for myslef, but it is an option.
OKAY.
Phew. So we have the Sixth paths,
1. Reading, understanding and using Vehk's lessons in the 36 Sermons.
2. Understanding of the universe, comprehending the ideas around time, or perhaps using the techniques of the Daedra to move out of time.
3. A substantial amount of spiritual/mental(or even, perhaps, physical, thought i doubt it) growth in order to wield the techniques in the other paths.
4. The most obscure one, and the one I would most like to clarify with Vehk himself (not likely)..the ideas of transcending or entering death...and then not. Dying, i mean. Not dying. That's all I could mesh out of the obscurness of that. (perhaps though, it could refer to the idea of Lichdom...I'm not sure)
5. LThe Path of Love;- divine piety, divine interevention, Love of Hate (all whirled up )..something along those lines (forgive my vagueness here.)...a love that is "against the earth bones"??
6. The path that Vehk, Ayem and Sehk took, using the Heart of Lorkhan, and commiting a very great violence.
As a side note, the Fifth Path is the last path that the hortator can travel, simply because Quote:
the fifth, which is the number of the limit of this world.
If indeed, it was intended that he travel them.
So there you have it. My paper of the 6 Paths to reach heaven by violence.
EDIT: This only contains infor regaring th 6 walking ways. My first, and quite short sighted post deals with reaching heaven by violence. To some extent!
I need some coffee....
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
Edited by pozzo (07/04/03 06:36 AM)
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Quote:
The wise may substitute one law for another, even into incoherence, and still say he is working within a method.
In the context of the current discussion, this made me laugh myself sick. Oh, Vehk, you lead your children on a merry dance...
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One way of looking at the books of Vivec is that it is built within the framework of the Tribunal, and within the paradigm of Vivec and the correctness in the Tribunal's actions. So I see it as a text that is powerful, overwhelming, and perhaps a little playful(inside jokes making fun of the structure of enigmatic religous texts ala a. crowley, and also influenced by his -love is the law, love under will.)
But also, I see it as propaganda of Vivec and the Tribunal, so I may enjoy the books and find substance to them, but at the same time I don't fully trust them.
I can engage the archetypes of the Tribunal, Daedra Lords, Imperial Gods, etc. because I'm so immerced in the world and it's lore, and I really relate to the spirtual outlooks presented in the Elderscroll Mythologies..so Video Game, be damned...these books are relevant to me own life. I'm quite intrigued that many people like these books and spend time looking into their meaning. I once emailed the guy who wrote them, and he said he just sat down and it all just came out in one sitting. wow.
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I'm very fond of Sermon 35. Try reading the Anuad for some insight into divine love. What is the origin of sex and murder?
Vivec is very clear about "highest love." Highest love is returning here from the astral destiny, presumably to teach you people. Try looking at what he's saying from an Altmer perspective; to an Altmer this would be the utmost foolishness, sacrificing your own freedom for the sake of others who may never be free. Jumping in the water to save a drowning man when there's no guarantee you will remember how to swim. And Vivec has certainly had his share of being kicked around as the result of his choice. At this very moment there are those who would call him a fool, doomed from the beginning... there are those who would call him a hero. I make no judgements against my dear little thief.
About this scripture being written to ensure the Hortator's faith. By "Hortator" you must mean me.  Because Nerevar died before Vivec became a god... Vivec was little more than a boy when Nerevar died. To take these scriptures as the literal record of Vivec's interactions with Nerevar is to take them very much out of context. Nevertheless, there is truth in them, and I believe he wrote them for reasons in addition to the obvious ones of concealing his own theft and demonizing his old master.
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I definatly agree that by downplaying Nerevar's role, or as being that of the loyal servant of the Tribunal (despite the fact that he died before they were formed) terribly weakens the position of the Ashlander religion, making it so they could not convert the people.
Going along with Logic and evil, lets give an example. There are over 7 billion people on this planet (I think). Overcrowding is getting rediculus. The population growth needs to flat line/go down. With all of these people our resources are getting tapped. The cheapest way to do it is to pay them to dig holes. Then shoot them and keep the money.
These are not my views, they are just the mad thinkings of one who has been briefly brushed by Sheogorath.
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Ready for larger cities?
http://groups.msn.com/DalothIsland/home.msnw
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Thank you Alli, that is a nice apologist stance and a helpful contribution ~ despite your stated disinterest
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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Oh, I'm not disinterested... I just believe scholarship is one of several wrong approaches to the Divine. My job as Patriarch is to wash his lordship's feet, on those rare occasions when he feels a need to use them, and to keep him at least slightly anchored in reality so that he doesn't leave us quite yet.
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I havent read everything here but one thing did spring to mind that i dont think anyone else spotted.
Where it says crater's well what is a crater ?, A deep whole in the ground ?, Now if i recall another name for dwemer was the deep and also if you compare the number of letter's in crater or crater's they are the same as Dwemer or Dwemer's. So could when the sermons speak of Crater's in fact be refering to the Dwemer ?.
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Reality is caused by lack of Alcohol.
Theif's G- Master Theif
Telvanni- ArchMagister/Hortator
Redoran- Archmaster/Hortator
Hlaalu- GrandMaster/prostitueingspud
Fighter's G-Master
Mage's G- Arch Mage
Morag Tong- Grand Master
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And I must surely contend that divinity is one of several wrong approaches to scholarship.
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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Sorry to barge in like this but:
So...we should approach the 'divine' by faith alone? What does that prove? That is one leap I'm willing not to make even if “faith conquers all”. Not that I wouldn't enjoy the 'desecration of Heaven by the Six Ways' for some care-free thrills  (oh, I might have pissed off some Lore Masters and Scholars, no harm intended), but, Vivec is alive and well in my game. But being the Patriarch that I am….I’ll probably say: - “Nope, nothing to see here, this has no relation whatsoever to the…ummm…sacred Sermons…yeah.” 
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Take that and that and that and that! HA! I warned you, didn't I? I didn't warn you? I thought I warned you. I didn't? oh, sorry. - Max, Sam & Max
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Faith? Heaven forbid! What is faith but believing what someone else wants you to believe? Go and find out, learn for yourself; it's inaction that I despise. The Tribunal did not become what they are by having faith. Nor by studying the works of others. They made their own works.
Finding the Tower by reading alone is like trying to visit a country by looking at a map...
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Well said, 'Faith' is conformity given, even if you give it to yourself, that can be also called delusion too. So the only way, is for you to pave it yourself, interesting, neither scholarship, divinity nor faith can make you reach/understand these goals, so much for the Seven Pilgrimages, although they come close, in a certain way...
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Take that and that and that and that! HA! I warned you, didn't I? I didn't warn you? I thought I warned you. I didn't? oh, sorry. - Max, Sam & Max
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And, oh, ha ha, I so do like this one, too.
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Quote:
Oh, I'm not disinterested... I just believe scholarship is one of several wrong approaches to the Divine. My job as Patriarch is to wash his lordship's feet, on those rare occasions when he feels a need to use them, and to keep him at least slightly anchored in reality so that he doesn't leave us quite yet.
 *names Allerleirauh, Sheogorath employee of the month*
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Sun Tzu - "The peak efficiency of knowledge and strategy is to make conflict unnecessary.”
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If Sheogorath needs HIS feet washed, he's going to have to find someone else to do it...
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zebomba
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Maybe it's the fact that I'm tired and English isn't my 1st language, but I hate you , this thread made me dizzy. Is there any daedra for sloth?
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Boazuda and Seth
If equal affection cannot be I hope the more loving one is not me.
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Quote:
I havent read everything here but one thing did spring to mind that i dont think anyone else spotted.
Where it says crater's well what is a crater ?, A deep whole in the ground ?, Now if i recall another name for dwemer was the deep and also if you compare the number of letter's in crater or crater's they are the same as Dwemer or Dwemer's. So could when the sermons speak of Crater's in fact be refering to the Dwemer ?.
There's only two instances where I know that crater is used. Its either after a meteor has hit and left a giant crater or its the form of a Volcano's crater. Which could mean in the Red Mountain's crater.
Well can be related in that it is meant to be something that is deep that can be drain out, a long tube that runs deep into the earth.
Combine them and it would basically mean that something can be drawn out from the deepest parts of the Red Mountain's crater, basically Lorkhan's room.
This could refer to the magic that the dwemer were tapping out from the heart. Not sure though.
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Alchemy Machine Mod in Artuzu - screen shots
Dwemer Links
Prof. of Academy for Dwemer Studies
Member of Team Pheonix
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Here are some thoughts on the topic of the six walking ways and associated themes. Most of these ideas come from old attempts at understanding the meaning of the Sermons, and some I have rejected since because they were really too approximative or unlikely to be true, but sometimes wrong ideas may inspire right ones so here we go.
I believe this Craters Parliament is in some way related to Vehk's statement : 'because you can see stars through the black patches of the lunar spheres.' (He/She was speaking of the "shadow" of the crescent but still, one may wonder)
As for the six walking ways, I have a different interpretation for paths three to five. I am quite unsure of the first, and can only offer some ideas but no solution for second.
Second way :
'The true sword is able to cut chains of generations, which is to say, the creation myths of your enemies. Look on me as the exiled garden. All else is uncut weed.
I give you an ancient road tempered by the second walking way. Your hands must be huge to wield any sword the size of an ancient road, and yet he who is of right stature may irritate the sun with only a stick.'
'The Sun shall be eaten by lions, which cannot be found yet in Veloth'
To cut chains of generation is more or less likely to be a reference to the Dragon's Break, or at least implies contestation of the Aedra. In the first case, an ancien road may mean the gateway that is Middle Dawn. The other possibility is that the second path was the one used by the Dwemer, since, in one of its aspects, the sword is the cross (alas the sword is an unclear symbol because it means more than one thing, protean value seems to be the rule here), and the cross is related to the Heart. But the second walking way tempers the ancient road, so it may be related to the Lunar Lattice in some way (now, when speaking of a sword, temper is quite unclear a word).
As to the sun, it may be totally unrelated, or another aspect of the same thing (this is path number two after all). The sun is another kind of gateway, and Hortator, in his attempt to subdue the Heavens, went to the sun after having left the moons.
The day sky is said to be the elemental cloak of the sun, and to change colors as elemental influences rise and fall. Fire is Lorkhan's element, and appears at dawn and dusk, symbolized by one of the Anticipations ('my murder-brother SEHT or her many aspects, who loves the secret tower'). Dawn is both day and night (and, at the same time, neither), Hurling Disk's and Trickster cult's sorcery is a mingling from Sun and Moons magic, so this brings us back to the sword able to 'cut chains of generations' and Middle Dawn. Dragon Break would be an aspect (using the Tower idol) and Dwemer escape another (using the Chim idol), but neither seems to be a finality in itself, so the real walking path here may be quite other.
Third way :
'Sermon Twenty-Seven [...]
The third walking path explores hysteria without fear'
'27. The secret fire'
'and Boethiah the secret flame'
Hysteria is but one of the aspects of the third walking path, and Boethiah is the anticipation of Almalexia.
'The truest body of work is made up of silence: as in the silence that results from no reference. By the word I mean the dead.'
This is for Sotha Sil
'The sage who suppresses his best aphorism: cut off his hands, for he is a thief.'
'When you approach God, however, cut both of them off'
'Then Vivec threw his ink on this passage to cover it up '
This is for dear master Vehk.
'Trinity in unity is the world and word of action: the third walking path'
(then the sixth does not seem to be what sermon 36 implies)
Fourth way :
'In the end, rejoice as a hostage released from drumming torment but that savors his wound. The drum breaks and you find it to be a nest of hornets, which is to say: your sleep is over.'
'The pleasure of annihilation is the pleasure of disappearing into the unreal. All those that would challenge the sleeping world will seek membership in this movement. I denounce the alienation of the Cloven Duality with a hammer.'
'The sage who is not an anvil: a conventional sentence and nothing more. By which I mean dead, the fourth walking way.'
The most obvious meaning is that the fourth way is the path of the Sharmat, though I believe there is much more to it (I actually have an idea I might develop later). Its number also suggests link with the Four Corners, and half of the corresponding sermon speaks of Sharmat, while half tells us of Daedras, so there might be a pattern here (though it seems quite strange to me that Sharmat, being the center of a cross, is not associated with number five rather than four -though that would indeed mean conflict with the corners of the world)
Fifth Way :
Ahh I love this one hehe. Many confusing words, because 'If you are to be born a ruling king of the world you must confuse it with new words'. As I already stated in a previous post, the fifth way is that of the Ruling Kings, the way of Love which is Murder. The way of one and one in one, the Master in the Tower, because Murder is a considerable Effort. Alas, all do not reach the hermaphrodite limit of this world, and who can tell which illuminated path leads from opposites to I within the corners ?
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Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School of Vivec
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1. Wulfharth L
2. Hjalti O
3. Ysmir R
4. Talos K
5. Arctus H
6. Septim A
N
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LDones
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Oh. Oh my....
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-LDones
http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles
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Oh, what a whispering! I was holding my breath in expectation of the comments of the scholars, but my face is turning blue, so I will speak and... bump this thread a little, lest the words of the Master go unheard.
Vehk, are you a thief or a herald?
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Oh. Oh my....
Cheers to that. My head is swimming at this implication.
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Greater Dwemer Ruins - more rusted cogs, homocidal Animunculi and neon lights than you can shake a stick at.
GDR Aleft - You can't expect it to not be flooded, really.
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phil_t
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What can we scholars say in resonse to that ????
Apart from thank you
warrior, poet, liar, thief
Which would you believe??
Phil
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*Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec*
*Forum Scholars Guild | Tamriel Rebuilt*
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1. Wulfharth
Walking Way Association: Sotha Sil. Therefore, Wulfharth as behind the scenes, or a loner. Strange that he was a ruler of Skyrim, considering...but then Sotha Sil ostensibly ruled part of Morrowind. Did Sotha Sil overthrow a previous regime like Wulfharth? Yes. Maybe the walking way does not necessarily refer to behind-the-scenes manipulation as it does to just manipulation, any kind of paternal enforcement. Maybe the walking way does not signify 'loner-hood' as much as it does just being Steadfastly Alone, whether by choice or measure of zealotry.
Fatherhood. 'A machine and the mouth of a machine.' For Sotha Sil this can mean being the progenitor of sublife, and a cold kind of fatherhood at that: systematic, logical, uncaring. The only guess I have of what a 'mouth of a machine' is as opposed to the actual 'machine' is that of heraldry, promise, or pontification. The absentee father working in his laboratory creating and representing the future.
Fatherhood. 'A machine and the mouth of a machine'. For Wulfharth, who takes over Skyrim after Hoag Merkiller, this could mean taking over the Fatherland, becoming its ruler and face to the world. However, in Wulfharth's case, the machine of the Alessian doctrines, which, from the records, sounds like a very tyrannical set of life guidelines, is overthrown, and done so very deliberately ('all their temples were razed, their priests put on poles'). Wulfharth replaces one machine with another, Alessian 'folly' for traditional Nordic worhip, and he does so with the great shouts of his thu'um. He is the 'mouth' of his own machine-- the untouchable, uncompromising father roaring about how his house will be.
So the first walking way is Paternal Rule or Reign, its representative often alone with his machinations and also determined that he and they are signifiers of a future world, which plays by his rules. The Father will systematically tear down the former world to 'reach heaven by violence' (make his will manifest). In this regard, perhaps this walking way is the mythic idea of sons (future Fathers) killing and replacing their fathers (the world as it stands before their assertion) to achieve masterhood and rule.
Now onto number 2,
Aion
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2. Hjalti
Walking Way Association: Almalexia. Therefore, Hjalti as force, of an immediate effect. We know little of Hjalti Early-beard from the lore, but we do know that he ostensibly was a warrior of some repute, eventually chosen by Wulfharth as his partner. (More likely, his agent.) Hjalti goes on to help reunify Cyrodiil after its long Interregnum, so maybe the walking way refers to exerting one's will on a land.
Motherhood. 'Active and clawed like a nix-hound.' For Almalexia this an industrious nurturing, the reformation of Resdayn by the sword. It is interesting that the normal male-female roles are somewhat reversed in these first two walking way: Fatherhood is coldly passive, whereas Motherhood is hot-blooded fanatical cultivation.
Motherhood. 'Yet she is the holiest of those that reclaim their days.' For Hjalti, taking back the ancient lands of Cyrodiil is a holy war that places him at a mythic crossroads. And so he replicates the walking way of another Mother-figure, and one more appropriate to his setting: Alessia the Slave-Queen, undertaking the toils of providing for his people by brute force, a sort of motherly-protection yet achieved through coercion.
So the second walking way is Maternal Rule or Reign, colored by Tamrielic myth, its representative one who 'brings forth' for the masses with an animal-like severity. The Mother often appears when her tribe is scattered or oppressed, and takes it upon herself (even when represented by a male face) to walk among them in great fury, carving out not only her destiny but her people's as well, and eventually becoming a revered public figure. Thus, the second walking way "reaches heaven by violence" in very unobscure terms.
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Why do you people like to study this ? I mean, it's only game. Ok, ingame history and philosophy, but think, is there truth behind it?
Or the study is only for your satisfaction?
I hope, some day... there would be out a video about... Tamriel (dreaming)
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The learner of Conditions and the Creations
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Quote:
Or the study is only for your satisfaction?
That's about right.
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Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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Quote:
but think, is there truth behind it?
Without trying to sound too pompous or crazed, yes, I believe there are essential truths-- applicable to a RL worldview-- behind the history, philosophy, theosophy, and cultural development in the fictional world of Tamriel.
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Even the worst fantasy system - and Tamriel has one of the best - is useful as a structure in which to think about the real world.
Aion, where's the rest of your analysis? Eagerly awaiting.
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The world is understood through metaphors. Language is a metaphor-system. Mathematics is a metaphor-system.
All real-world schools of magic and religion revolve around the understanding of vast metaphor-systems, symbols as they relate to concepts.
The Elder Scrolls games feature a really vast and rich series of thoughtful metaphors regarding life, the universe, and the place of 'us' in the grand scheme of things - with an obscured emphasis on themes of ascension - so there can be a lot of reward in the gleaning and contemplation of them.
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-LDones
http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles
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my GOD you all know so much about this stuff...i get lost iun reading it..mabey i should start grabbing books and rading them...anyone got a list of some of the books in morrowind i could read...so i can inda get a hang of things (im not talking about ones about stupid things...just the ones that concern things you are all talking about) anyway....pm me with a list....or just leave it here...im sure lsts of others who run through here feel the same way...thanks again for any help
  
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