|
Nazz
|
|
Disciple
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 02/21/02
|
|
Posts: 1364
|
|
Loc: Almalexia
|
|
|
Quote:
Kier-jo:
"Your monkeys dance on the Tower and the stars change and you do not remember."
I for one remember and that is what I am here to write to you about. I believe that when the selective "danced" on the Tower in the year 1E1200 they in effect became the new embodiment of the eight divines AKA the Aedra.
As I'm sure most of you have read the Murahkati were always frustrated with the idea that the eight divines were mostly comprised of the Aedra and therefore contained a more than healthy amount of merish inluence, for these nemer atleast, to handle. For them there was no way better to not only alleviate themselves of the humiliation of Altmer influence and in the process solidify Cyrodiil's place among the stars than to follow the Tribunal's path and Break the Dragon and influence his healing.
Quote:
R'leyt-harhr, Khajiit, Tender to the Mane:
While you were fighting wars with phantoms and giving birth to your own fathers...
As Vivec has described during his trial, when he used the heart he then existed before he was born in the new timeline that was created; he in effect gave birth to himself when he used the heart. Now the humans believe that while they did not descend directly from the et'Ada, they do believe that they were created by them so you could say the Aedra were their fathers. If, as I have put forth here, the Selective did change/become the Aedra when they broke the Dragon they would be giving birth to their own fathers in the new timeline that would be created from the break.
The falling of the eight stars, the stars as you may recall are holes in Oblivion that allow you to see Aetherious, coincide with the number of Aedra and their "falling" signifies a change from their original state, a corruption if you will.
Notice that Where were you... fails to get the Altmer perspective on the event. Obviously no Altmer would want to speak on the corruption of thier own pantheon. While other races are missing an explanation the Altmer are the only sigificant race, as far as this incedent is concerned, that was not recorded.
Quote:
Mannimarco:
"As for myself, I was here and there and here again, like the rest of the mortals during the Dragon Break. How do you think I learned my mystery? The Maruhkati Selectives showed us all the glories of the Dawn so that we might learn, simply: as above, so below.”
Mannimarco's own account supports this notion as well. Here he is saying that he learned how to make himself a god from learning what the Maruhkati did to become the Aedra.
There could be more buried in the tomes of the library but these are all that seemed to speak directly to this end. Any reactions other than shock?
--------------------
The 4th of First Seed - Dusk and Dusk
Keeper of the Gate to Oblivion
Post Extras:
|
|
Nigedo
|
|
Disciple
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 05/30/03
|
|
Posts: 1994
|
|
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
|
|
|
My, my. What an interesting proposition. Excellent work, Nazz.
This idea is not as outlandish as I first thought from your title. What you are offering does have merit and I readily accept it as a plausible hypothesis.
We should try to find further evidence to either support or disprove this, however.
In the cases of Vehk and ALMSIVI generally (as in the attempt of the Dwemer before) and also in the case of Mannimarco, there was a vital catalyst for each apotheosis. In each case this was a mantella, a "crux of transcendance", which acted as an earthed star or a mortally accessible bridge to Aetherius.
The Heart is the pivot and crux of the Wheel and therfore of the Mundus, its Hub; by this I mean it is the Static, physical embodiment of the mythic point at which all mortal experience and lines of Time converge (see Phil's research on the Provisional House). It is not difficult to guess the rudiments of how accessing the properties of the Heart (the 'Egg of Time') could allow reality to be refashioned.
I perceive Septim's Mantella to have been a kind of artificial Heart of Lorkhan. Not merely as a 'power source', as some would have it, but as an impossible, localised pivot of mortal experience, created through the joining of opposing, divine essences (but this belongs to yet undisclosed study).
So where then was the 'transcendant crux' of the Marukhati Selective?
For their own method of reshaping the Wheel, we learn that the Marukhati Selectives "channelled the Aurbis" itself and their eyes were opened to the Tower, which they then manipulated through further ritual magicks.
Is this self-explanatory? I think not. Vehk has also alluded to this process as the Right Reaching and given some clues to the vital, catalysing element they employed.
I suggest you take a closer look at certain excerpts from Vehk's Book of Hours for further evidence, Nazz.
--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
Post Extras:
|
|
B
|
|
Disciple
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 11/11/01
|
|
Posts: 1718
|
|
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
|
|
|
Fascinating!
--------------------
~B
Assistant Librarian at The Imperial Library
Forum Scholars Guild | The Modern Adventurer
Post Extras:
|
|
mafafu
|
|
Disciple
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 06/18/03
|
|
Posts: 1901
|
|
|
|
|
You might also want to look for other references to the Right Reaching and it's link to Lorkhan, or should I say the Serpent?
--------------------
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. - Richard Dawkins, Unweaving the Rainbow
Post Extras:
|
|
phil_t
|
|
Curate
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/27/02
|
|
Posts: 419
|
|
|
|
|
What an enchanting theory Nazz!! 
Sterling work, it is good to have you back among us and in full flow
Perhaps you might also take a look at the example of Wulfharth, who also appears to have undertaken a Right Reaching of some kind to achieve his thu'um of 'How to shake the Dragon just so'.
Phil
(For my own quest, im going off to hunt down Alastor in his tower and drag him kicking and screaming back into the light  )
--------------------
*Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec*
*Forum Scholars Guild | Tamriel Rebuilt*
Edited by phil_t (03/04/04 09:36 AM)
Post Extras:
|
|
Xanathar
|
|
Curate
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 06/01/00
|
|
Posts: 926
|
|
Loc: Tamriel, I guess...
|
|
|
Excellent work, Nazz. Unfortunatelly my limited english cannot decipher more of Vehk's Sermons/Dragon Break. I can't help anything for this kind of discussion. What can I do is giving you these 
--------------------
~Xayah Ayem Neht
Librarian at The Imperial Library
Member of The Forum Scholars Guild
Engineer of the Imperial Airship
Post Extras:
|
|
Vehk
|
|
Initiate
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 06/08/03
|
|
Posts: 97
|
|
|
|
|
You are so very close, it is a shaking in the earth.
Post Extras:
|
|
B
|
|
Disciple
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 11/11/01
|
|
Posts: 1718
|
|
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
|
|
|
There was a time when I thought that Iachesis and the original council of Artaeum had done something similar. I like your thoughts much better.
--------------------
~B
Assistant Librarian at The Imperial Library
Forum Scholars Guild | The Modern Adventurer
Post Extras:
|
|
|
|
You appear to be stating that the Selective 'usurped' in a way the Aedric positions. The Selective would have had to be deceived by Lorkhan and go through everything the Aedra went through. They would have had to be the aspects of Anu, and we have seen how when one tries to make himself everlasting he ceases to be who he was. I believe the Selective has basically become the Aedra, as Vehk became his godform. He lost his identity by his witness, why would the Selective not lose theirs?
This is an interesting topic, but one that is based on technicalities. Here we have evidence of an Aedric rebirth, nothing more, nothing less.
--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.
The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati
Post Extras:
|
|
Aion
|
|
Novice
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 02/17/04
|
|
Posts: 11
|
|
|
|
|
Quote:
Here we have evidence of an Aedric rebirth, nothing more, nothing less.
What more do you want?
Geez.
Post Extras:
|
|
|
|
Quote:
What more do you want?
Nothing more. 
--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.
The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati
Post Extras:
|
|
|
|
Hmm, this raises a new interesting question: Is Mannimarco yet his original self or has he been changed into a new form as well?
--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.
The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati
Post Extras:
|
|
Nazz
|
|
Disciple
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 02/21/02
|
|
Posts: 1364
|
|
Loc: Almalexia
|
|
|
Thank you fellow scholors, and Lord Vivec as well, for the support.
I knew I was forgetting to look for evidence somewhere, I will look through the Whirling School and see what I can find.
--------------------
The 4th of First Seed - Dusk and Dusk
Keeper of the Gate to Oblivion
Post Extras:
|
|
|
|
Ah, so somebody did look into the Dragon Break again. Very Good work  I did say there was some interesting stuff to find. Slowly the pieces of the puzzle come together.
One more thing to consider, What Happened to the Psijic Council when they disapeared. I always wondered where the old chaps got off to  . A much harder piece to fit even if you can find it.
Post Extras:
|
|
Solin
|
|
Initiate
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/04/03
|
|
Posts: 91
|
|
Loc: Overseeing the growth of Tel Kaerth at Bal Sadrith
|
|
|
I wish found these halls of lore earlier so that, perhaps, I might truly know something now...
After reading of the Dragon Break at Red Mountain in Vehk's trial, I felt the need to understand it more. Not to userp Nazz but, after reading the excerpts from Vehk's Book of Hours I noticed something that might be related. The Book of Hours refers to a Dragon Break or possibly multiple Dragon Breaks, does it not? The Hurling Disk, I believe, refers to the Break or the period the Break involves during 1E1200 at the very least. I say this from excerpt six:
"Like many things they cannot explain, the middle dawn is merely another excuse to declare good omens and portents, but unto you it should be known as the Hurling Disk, numbered seventeen… "
The italics are my own. I believe that the Hurling Disk is the wheel without its spokes. In Vehk's excerpt The Tower he refers to the number of Aedra and Deadra in verses(?) twenty-nine and thirty and again in Sermon 21 verses 3 and 9. Sixteen voids and eight spokes exist. The eight spokes were broken/removed for a time by the Selective. Given free reign by the Break, Mnemoli appears. The number of the gods of the Hurling Disk is now seventeen.
I find this all to be very interesting, but my thoughts are jumbled. Is there any place I can learn more of this? Perhaps I should just back away...
--------------------
"There’s man all over for you, blaming on his boots the faults of his feet." -Vladimir, in Waiting for Godot
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec | Mnemoli's Gate
Post Extras:
|
|
Nigedo
|
|
Disciple
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 05/30/03
|
|
Posts: 1994
|
|
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
|
|
|
Solin, I don't wish to go off on a tangent in this thread, but your thoughts seem to me to be going in the right direction. PM me if you'd like to. You might like to attempt the Whirling School research fellowship topic on 'The Hurling Disk: numbered seventeen'.
--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
Post Extras:
|
|
Vireyar
|
|
Adept
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 07/08/03
|
|
Posts: 208
|
|
Loc: Trying really very hard to drain a bit of moisture from Aleft
|
|
|
Any reactions other than shock?
Not really. Well-done!
Solin: I find this all to be very interesting, but my thoughts are jumbled. Is there any place I can learn more of this? Perhaps I should just back away...
One's thoughts are almost always jumbled when trying to think on and interpret the Sermons. Don't back away! Retreating from study is a sure road to ignorance. I think you are off to an excellent start on the Hurling Disk.
--------------------
Greater Dwemer Ruins - more rusted cogs, homocidal Animunculi and neon lights than you can shake a stick at.
GDR Aleft - You can't expect it to not be flooded, really.
Post Extras:
|
|
Nazz
|
|
Disciple
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 02/21/02
|
|
Posts: 1364
|
|
Loc: Almalexia
|
|
|
Quote:
Accounts of the Middle Dawn are the province of the Empire of Men, and proof of the deceit that call themselves the Aedra...Do not ask us where we were when the Dragon Broke, for, of all the world, only we truly know, and we might just show you how to break it again
I had ment to include that quote in the original post but somehow it slipped my mind. "The Middle Dawn is the province of the Empire of Men", which is to say it was the Cyrodiil who broke the dragon to insure their place among the stars. She also seems to claim, to me anyway, that it was the Dunmer who showed the Selective how to break the Dragon. Or atleast the Dunmer know how it should be done correctly. Also as a completely off topic comment, there seem to be alot of Dunmer priestseses named Mehra.
Quote:
According to Hestra, Cyrodiil became an Empire across the stars.
Again showing a newly formed correlation between the Aedra and Cyrodiil.
Quote:
The Aedra would have you believe different, but they were givers before liars. Lies have turned them into biters. Their teeth are the proselytizers; to convert is to place oneself in the mouth of falsehood; even to propitiate is to be swallowed.
They gave themselves to the Mundus before they were changed into liars(men). That influence of man has turned them hostile to anyone who does not follow stasis. To believe that the Aedra are stasis is to believe those lies and die with the world.
I will now present something similar to what Solin put before us, yet the slight change has great significance(if I am correct of course). I believe that whatever went on during the the "dance" on the tower, and other events that go on before breaks, are forms of Mnemolic sorcery and that using her magic draws her into the wheel. The addition of her extra spoke causes an imbalance in the wheel and is the actual cause of the break. Her presence causes the other spokes to be removed and also removes the "second snake" or inner circle. Her presence also awakens the Dragon for he has to remove her from the wheel to regain the balance and while he does this he cannot control time which accounts for the strange timeline inconcistancies. With the inner circle removed the practicioners of the Mnemolic sorcery are able to perform a Right Reaching(this is just my guess as to what the reaching really is) and play with Aurbis as they see fit. In the case of the Selective they themselves put the spokes back into the wheel making them part of the wheel and "replacements" for the Aedra.
--------------------
The 4th of First Seed - Dusk and Dusk
Keeper of the Gate to Oblivion
Post Extras:
|
|
Nael
|
|
Curate
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 05/15/02
|
|
Posts: 662
|
|
|
|
|
I thought everyone already realized that the Aedra aren't who (EDIT: what) they claim to be. I said that a couple months ago. I was never one to cite references though, heh. *shrugs and goes back to lurking*
PS-I believe "Mehra" is an honorific title, like "Father". Not their names. Could be wrong of course though 
--------------------
Sun Tzu - "The peak efficiency of knowledge and strategy is to make conflict unnecessary.”
Edited by Nael (03/09/04 05:37 AM)
Post Extras:
|
|
|
|
thats awsome....wow....great stuff...
--------------------
"To obtain a bird's eye is to turn a blizzard to a breeze" ~Incubus~
"So do you think that were that blind? When we can see through all your lies. ~Lost Prophets~
@-;-,'-------
Tiny Tean Ironaxe's Tribunal Maps!
Post Extras:
|
|
|
|
*Yawns*
Whoa, have I been asleep long?
This is very interesting Nazz. I am surprised I overlooked this notion myself!
Excellent insight.
Post Extras:
|
|
Qwerty
|
|
Disciple
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 05/31/00
|
|
Posts: 1598
|
|
|
|
|
It sounds very plausible to me. Now the obvious question is... Did the canonical Eight Aedra even exist in the world that was before the Dragon Broke?
There are two ways to look at the Eight Divines. First look (the one I preferred for a long while) was: the pantheof of the Eight is, essentially, an arbitrary human creation. More specifically, Queen Alessia's creation. See this document here. She deliberated for a while, and chose the Eight we know as a compromise cult so that both her Nordic allies and her Altmer-influenced subjects are happy or at least placated.
This clashes with the worldview of the "36 Lessons", escpecially with the Scripture of the Wheel. According to the SotW, the Eight are a deep part of objective reality. The mortal world, or at least a good chunk of it, is made out of the Eight's divine bodies (re: "Earthbones").
Nazz's theory allows us to neatly reconcile these two contradictory ideas. Yes, Alessia chose the Eight arbitrarily. THEN the Dragon Broke and they became a part of objective reality, and always were, from the creation of the world (when they were an active part of) onwards. Lord Vehk suggests elsewhere: when an Apotheosis* happens, old universe ceases to exist, a new one is born, where the new deity has been from the very begining.
Post Extras:
|
|
|
|
You suggest that the Aedra didn't actually exist? Interesting, but it seems much more likely that they did considering the fact Auriel/Akatosh originally lived among the Mer and the entire basis of the world's creation is centered around their existence (that and Lorkhan's involvement). Without their immortal personas the world would not/could not exist.
Alessia simply took what was there and mutated it to her own ends. The Earthbones are how we see the power of the Aedra and our relience on them. Even the Skaal worship the aspects of nature and an "All-Maker", the end result is that they combine the Aedra's nature with Lorkhan as is neccessity in a Nordic culture. Our perceptions may twist things, but the original divine "layout" exists, even with the Maruhkati's tampering.
--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.
The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati
Post Extras:
|
|
Susano
|
|
Adept
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 04/23/03
|
|
Posts: 207
|
|
|
|
|
Perhaps, but maybe it were 10, or 11, before the dragon break, if this theory is right. It could then indeed be that only teh Dragion Break made it so that it are 8 Aedra,a nd teh 8 Aedra we know of today.
Remember also that we deal with time here - exactly the factor that did break, all in all. If we say "before" the dragon break, what do we mean? In linear time, sure, the Aedra had to be present to create the world. But the dragon break could have also broken this "before", replacing it with an own "before"...
--------------------
Serving honourably in House Redoran
Post Extras:
|
|
Nazz
|
|
Disciple
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 02/21/02
|
|
Posts: 1364
|
|
Loc: Almalexia
|
|
|
Actually Q, that thought was my original theory, but all the talk in the Dragon Break book about Maruhkati not liking the merish influences in the eight divines, and that being the reason for the break, made me think that they did already exist.
--------------------
The 4th of First Seed - Dusk and Dusk
Keeper of the Gate to Oblivion
Post Extras:
|
|
|
|
The lore says that the worship of the 8 divines was established under Alessia, and adapted from the earlier Elvish pantheon, so it does predate the Marukhati.
Post Extras:
|
|
Susano
|
|
Adept
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 04/23/03
|
|
Posts: 207
|
|
|
|
|
just that this one septim is also part of the eight diviens, as hero god - so atcualyl there are only SEVEN aedria worshipped in the imperial cult.
--------------------
Serving honourably in House Redoran
Post Extras:
|
|
Helton
|
|
Adept
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 01/27/03
|
|
Posts: 291
|
|
Loc: 6 feet under
|
|
|
I believe there are Nine Divines, eight of which are the Aedra.
--------------------
"It's 106 miles to Arroyo, we got a full fusion cell, half a pack of RadAway, it's midnight, and I'm wearing a 50-year old Vault 13 Jumpsuit. Let's hit it!" -The Chosen One
"I'm no expert on drugs."-Hegemon
"No offense meant, but I am."-Hermit_of_Gilead
Post Extras:
|
|
LDones
|
|
Disciple
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 10/10/02
|
|
Posts: 1032
|
|
|
|
|
They added Septim later. He was originally worshiped as a god by the Talos Cult, but he got added to the list of Divines somewhere between the events of Daggerfall and Morrowind.
--------------------
-LDones
http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles
Post Extras:
|
Previous
Index
Next
Flat
Threaded
The Maruhkati Selective are the Aedra
Edit
Reply
Quote
Re: The Maruhkati Selective are the Aedra
[Re: 
Re: The Maruhkati Selective are the Aedra
[Re: 
Re: The Maruhkati Selective are the Aedra
[Re: 
