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Ronin49
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Reged: 03/08/04
Posts: 1723
Loc: Canada
Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users
      #2930951 - 08/15/04 01:22 AM

Prologue - This is intended to be a discussion thread where we can amicably explore some ideas about mod conflicts. I should imagine we will differ on some of them: I hope so as that provides an opportunity to learn. To me this is not an issue of modder vs. user. And I think the views of both mod makers and mod users, the experienced and novice of both, are relevant to a discussion on this subject. And finally, a request - please take aimed shots which suggests - discussing ideas not ancestry , reading the whole thread and not just the title or the last post, and taking the time to make a considered response.

Longish post, hang on . . . .

The subject of mod conflicts is hardly new. Earlier today, Pseron Wyrd, for whom I have much respect despite his new avvy , wrote this HERE:
Quote:

I don't think you need to be too overly concerned with landmass conflicts, personally. No matter where you put your island it is bound to conflict with the landmass placed by some other mod. And if it doesn't conflict with anything now it is almost certainly conflict with a landmass placed by some mod in the future.

It is not the business of a modder to wiry about this. After all, if we put on a green shirt and a pink pair of pants do we blame the clash of colors on the two people who designed the clothes?

I believe players need to take some responsibility in choosing which mods to run during a game. Modders ought to be free to concentrate on their craft, to concentrate on producing the finest work they are capable of at that moment in their lives and players need to decide if that work is appropriate for the game they are planning. It is not a modder's job to think for the player.

I say: if two mods conflict, don't whine to the modder; play them in different games.




Now, I actually agree with most of this or the general thrust and, in my view, the sentence - "I believe players need to take some responsibility in choosing which mods to run during a game." - is a generous understatement. I think a player is entirely responsible for choosing which mods to run and getting and keeping them going.

That said, there were some parts of the quote that gave me pause. Generally, I think there may be some responsibilities on the part of both maker and user. Putting it another way, there are some things that can be done to assist the player in discharging that responsibility in the most effective and least painful way.

First, to some kids to get off the street:
  • No one truly expects anyone else to use only one mod [not TC], so the issue of compatibility and conflict is always there and probably should be considered by the mod maker as part of their design criteria.
  • Mods are freeware into which the creator pours their time, energy and creative juices. They are a gift and that fact is appreciated.
  • It is therefore not a question of what mod makers should, ought or have to do. They do not. However, that consideration does not make the issue of what they could usefully do go away. And craft places its own demands.
  • Mods are made for the enjoyment of the maker. Quite a few people tell us that and, given the work involved, you have to hope that's true. I believe it. But once you upload a mod, you have intentionally made it available for the use of others and that suggests, at least to me, not an obligation but a desire on the part of the maker that their mod be useful to its potential users. And that suggests giving some consideration to things like conflicts.
  • You do not have to be a mod maker to know something about mod conflicts or hard work.
  • It is acknowledged that there are apparently some mod users who seemingly could take greater responsibility for the selection of mods in their game and for learning how to work the magic. I suggest though that most mod users do take that responsibility once they have had a little time to learn the basics.
  • Not everyone has highly developed CS skills and hardly anyone does at the beginning. 'Just move the building/landmass/NPC/city" is easy enough to say if you have done it successfully a few times. Not so easy at first and for some never likely to happen.
  • "Examples" are just that; an instance meant to illuminate a point being made in discussion. They may not be the best example or the only example nor do they exclude other similar or opposite instances. They are just examples.
  • If a few mods get named as examples to demonstrate a point, please understand this is not intended as criticism and put away that Nomex underwear.


Secondly, it is worth pointing out that there are different kinds of conflicts and, I suggest, differing expectations for the conflicts presented by different kinds of mods. Try this - locations for landmasses are relatively limited and pretty full. Large adventure mods with a landmass, settlements and a coven of quests are therefore likely to find few locations to set up where they will not bump into another of their kind, another "big location mod". It therefore seems perfectly reasonable to me, as they do not depend on each other, to expect that I could choose between them. I can always play the other one in a different game or sequentially in the same game.
There are some things that a mod maker can do that are very helpful, that indicate a very high standard of craftsmanship and artistry and that are much appreciated. They are:
  • An awareness of the location conflict issue and a reasonable effort to avoid or mitigate its effects. Most large mod makers seem to do this quite naturally. I have read a few too many readmes for my taste though that say, "No known conflicts" when you could bet on the basis of the rough location that it will conflict and when you load it up, so it does.
  • The 'real estate' questions in WIP threads and beta testing approaches employed by many appear to define these potential location conflicts early on. It is perhaps worth suggesting the obvious, that some pre-release tests with as many other mods loaded as possible are much more informative than a nearly bare Data Files test drive.
  • Some folk precisely indicate the locations modified by their mod by cell co-ordinates. This is very useful and it is unfortunate this is not common to all releases and readmes. Others have a 'big hand, small map' approach - NE of Dagon Fel, NW of Khuul, SW of Seyda Neen etc - OK but where?
  • The most effective approach, in my view, is that employed by only a few mod makers and that is to supplement co-ordinate descriptions with a map in a release thread screenshot and a copy in the download file. If I can compare several of these maps, regardless of my CS or TES utility expertise I can make a pretty accurate guesstimate of likely compatibility or conflict before I load anything.
  • Finally, I suggest it is important that large location or landmass dependent mods are positioned so that they do not conflict with other mods providing services or facilities and requiring a modest amount of real estate, the "small location mods", see below.


There are scripting conflicts as well and I suggest, that as some mods become more and more script intensive, there will be more of these.
There are script conflicts or effects that are unavoidable to accomplish the mod's aim and these must needs be accepted to use the mod. But it seems to me that they should usually be known to the mod maker and communicated to the user. An excellent example is Monica's Shield Rotation mod: it permits shield placement but the existence of the scripts to do this prevent stacking of shields in Inventory. This was known and stated up front. Fair enough - the user then has access to the information on which to make a rational choice about using the mod.
In other cases most mod makers seem to take a good deal of care to ensure that the scripts they build do not conflict with other game play. That would seem to be a reasonable approach, to limit the script effects wherever possible to the desired outcome and nothing else.

Some dialogue conflicts also are reported. It seems that the usual response by the maker is to define the source of the problem and to rectify it, usually very quickly. This seems to me to be a reasonable approach and one that we could hope would normally be adopted, with the game dialogue and that of the older mod having precedence.

There are other location situations that are not so clear-cut. Quite often these are conflicts between the locations of NPCs or buildings, sometimes buildings that are utilized within a larger adventure mod.
My best example is Suran. Fortunately, I did not have House of Spears loaded but Suran Underworld, Suran Archery Tradehouse, an essential quest-giver for the Serene Tower mod and another essential quest-giver for Archemage's Tower [because of a dialogue/naming conflict between the two Tower mods, I think] were all trying to operate out of the same building. [This is intended as illustration, not criticism: the authors of the more recent mods have gone to considerable lengths to resolve this and seem well on their way to doing so. Also, Pseron Wyrd has posted 'fix location' mods for both of the two merchant mods.]
My point here is that I do think it is reasonable to hope that mod makers take particular care not to conflict with existing and reasonably well known "small location mods", normally service-providing mods - merchants, fast travel, banks, guild houses and the like, precisely because these are the mods that you really do not want to play sequentially like you can quest mods.

Nor are these location conflicts primarily from "big location mods" conflicting with "small location mods". The "smalls" seem to conflict with each other quite often. I know of at least two in Seyda Neen where the placement of an NPC in a later mod 'broke' the function of an existing mod. In both cases, the conflicts were eventually resolved by relocating one of the conflicting mods. There are several measures that mod makers can take to limit or accommodate these instances of location conflict:
  • The same awareness of real estate issues referred to in discussing "big location mods" above.
  • Similar provision of a screenshot or sketch map in the WIP and release threads and the download file to provide the mod user with the information on which to make an informed decision.
  • "Get out of Dodge!" Mods that place NPCs in close proximity to NPCs from other mods can have unfortunate effects upon the playability of either or both. it is true that Vvardenfell is really not that large and that there are a now a lot of "small location mods" that one could hope would 'play nicely together.' But it seems to me that much of the crowding is self-inflicted. Who decreed that new underwear or armour had to be available the instant the adventurer got off the boat or very soon afterward? When I look at some older mods, this seems to be a fairly recent phenomenon. Seyda Neen, particularly the Customs and Census Office and Arrille's, is grossly over-crowded with mods. So is Balmora, to the point of cliché, and increasingly Suran. An excellent example of the solution is Canadian Ice's Dagon Fel location for Metal Queen Boutique , out of the city but connected to fast travel: any new character can get there safely long before they have enough money to make the trip worthwhile. This is not accidental: her house location is also placed so as not to conflict. Gnisis, Maar Gan, the eastern outskirts of Dagon Fel, Vos and Molag Mar are all under-utilized. Hopefully, the makers of 'small location mods" will realize this and begin to locate new mods in those places.


In summary, I think that mod users are entirely responsible for their mod usage. I also think that truly skillful mod making delivers the mod into the game world with a minimum of conflict, especially by "small location mods", and there are many of these very well tuned mods. I suggest that mod makers might want to consider locating their new shoppes and traders somewhere other than Seyda Neen, Balmora and Suran. Morrowind places many quests suitable for lower level characters along country roads. It seems odd to me that many mods do not do the same.

More than two cents worth of words there. What do other people think?

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"And to everyone seeing naked and headless people, READ THE README!!! It's the answer to all your troubles." Neoptolemus

Morrowind Mythic Mods ----> Ronin49's Lists & Links, Starting Out With Mods, Themed Mod Lists, Telesphoros' List o'Mods

Edited by Ronin49 (08/15/04 01:30 AM)

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Ivza
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Reged: 01/05/03
Posts: 156
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Ronin49]
      #2931268 - 08/15/04 03:33 AM

Yesterday, as I was trying to find out what was wrong with Haunted Tombs to cause conflicts with redwoodtreesprite's mod configuration (eventually, it turned out there weren't conflicts), my attitude towards compatibility issues somewhat changed.

Until then, I had tried my best to keep the mod compatible with as many mods as possible. No matter how well you try to make a mod, it's always possible that someone makes a mod that conflicts with it. I related this case to the time I was programming applets in a company. Did it work with Netscape? Did it work with IE? Which versions? Which OSs? OS/2? WinNT? When I got paid for doing that, I did my best to get the software to work for everyone. Not so with the applets I did on my freetime.

Now, I only try to make sure my mod doesn't conflict with other closely related mods - that is, if I were to make a Guild of Hunters, I'd see (to some extent) that it wouldn't conflict with some marksman mods, for example. But I wouldn't care a bit if it conflicted with something quite unrelated, for example Sixth House, no matter how good that other mod would be even in my eyes. I also don't see any obligation for me to download mods just to see if they'd conflict with what I'm making.

Don't understand this as I'd be actively seeking conflicts - I do follow the guidelines I read somewhere to keeping mods nonconflicting, I just won't necessarily do anything about a conflict if there is one. After all, there's always the possibility of not using my mods.

I agree with you on quite a few points. I'm not holding players at gunpoint to download my mods or anything. I've also tried to utilize places that aren't that much used, although I haven't left Balmora and Suran completely untouched. I gave the practice of listing changed cells when my mods begun to use over twenty different cells. None of them involved landscaping, though.

Here's to hoping my grumpiness will vanish before next weekend.

--------------------
My mods and utils: Icatos; Markov Name Generator; Amulet of Scrye; Haunted Tombs; Blight Bounties

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Pyrus
Initiate

Reged: 07/27/04
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Ivza]
      #2931301 - 08/15/04 03:55 AM

Damn all you modders for forcing us to make choices!

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DopeHatMan
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Reged: 06/20/03
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Ronin49]
      #2931406 - 08/15/04 04:51 AM

I say modders are responsible for making their mods compatible with those that they're aware of in the area, if at all feasible... it also depends on the scale of the project... there's no way in hell we could make UA compatible iwth another Tel Uvirith mod that messes with the interior of the tower, it just won't happen because it's completely unrealistic to expect it...

the users are also responsible for deciding what to use and what not to use, even if it means learning how to use the CS to get them to play nice together... that was actually my first intro into modding, getting Uvirith Unleashed and Uvirith Vault to work together.

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detritus2004
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Ronin49]
      #2931419 - 08/15/04 04:57 AM

I have made screenshots of the game map and the cs region map of my wip, showing the cells I'm changing. I do this because it's easier than just listing cell coordinates and I think people understand a visual image better than a list of numbers.

That said I'm sure my mod will conflict with some others. I've avoided those areas of some other people's wips because I want to play them when they are released, but massive projects like Tamriel Rebuilt and Silgrad Tower are probably going to make my mod obsolete when they come out. I've decided I can live with that.

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Morrowind Mods by Detritus2004
Mystara's Morrowind Links
NIFLA: Home of the .nif importer and exporter for MilkShape




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brood
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: detritus2004]
      #2931428 - 08/15/04 05:08 AM

I always check for conflicts and I urge other modders to do the same!

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*WIP LIST*
``````````
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My Site: http://www.broodmodding.tk/

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Matthew13
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Ronin49]
      #2931877 - 08/15/04 09:59 AM

As a mod-maker I tend to regard part of making a good mod as avoiding conflicts whenever and wherever possible. For example, I've moved things or changed names in order to resolve conflicts with Carnithus' Armamentarium and the Illuminated Order, and the forthcoming edition of my mod will resolve the conflict with the Suran Archery Tradehouse.

However, there comes a time where you have got to say, allright, I've done my best, and this is the product that I'm going to release. There are simply too many mods out there to resolve all the conflicts. Ultimately this is a player responsibility. And if, as a player, you choose to run a hundred different mods, then it is unrealistic to expect that there will not be any conflicts. After all, mod makers are not a coordinated community. Mostly we work alone or in small groups, and keeping all the mods out there straight is just not going to happen. Hell, it's been almost a year since I've seriously played Morrowind, except to test what I'm working on.

So, as a matter of courtesy and pride, I will try to release stuff that is as conflict free as I can make it, however, if you are planning on running many many mods at once then I'm thinking that developing some CS skills is a must.


--------------------
Matthew


Imagination IS more important than knowledge. . .but knowledge is a close second.

Creator of Suran Underworld
Writer of Random Thoughts

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Mode_Locrian
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Matthew13]
      #2931977 - 08/15/04 10:42 AM

Well... I try to avoid conflicts by using unique ID naming schemes (a five character prefix for all IDs in any mod I create e.g. ML_B_ in Bjornholm and ML_H_ in Herbalism Redux). However, with respect to landmass locations, I don't worry about it that much. If you're making a large island like I am, and you want it to be on the viewable map, it's pretty much guaranteed that it will conflict with something. Further, if you want it to have some sort of believable lore consistency, that limits your location options further (e.g. due the snow on Bjornholm, I couldn't really put it south of Vvardenfell).

I make a note of landmass conflicts whenever I discover them so that I can warn people in the readme (as if anyone ever reads it...) but that doesn't mean I'm about to move my island or anything. It's my mod, that I'm creating primarily for my own amusement so, as long as it doesn't conflict with any of my other mods, I don't have a problem with it.

Unfortunately, this means that if other people want to use the mod, they may have to choose between it and others, but that's what multiple saved games are for. Further, so I don't sound like a total bad guy, I will be including an esp file that contains all of the weapons, armor, objects etc that you can acquire in Bjornholm without the landmass so, once you're done exploring the island, you can clean your save and use the items esp to retain all the loot that you've collected. With respect to avoiding conflicts, that's about the best solution I can come up with.

--------------------
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Bards of Vvardenfell Thread (New Info 8/15/04)


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Patrograd2
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Ronin49]
      #2932045 - 08/15/04 11:03 AM

Well, I broadly agree with what you're saying. There is much that a modder can do, without any extra work, to make the mod less likely to conflict.

As has been said, making objects/scripts etc with unique IDs and unique prefixes is alot of it, and represents zero extra work for the modder. To not do this, is to me, just sloppy modding.

Landmasses are different. As has been said, if the modder wants it on the main map, then it will conflict. If not, as in my case, then its also easy enough to make steps to reasonably avoid conflicts. In fact, i thought it was more important to avoid conflicts than to be on the map, but thats a personal decision. Plenty of people have complained about the lack of a world map on my island (located well to the South of Vvardenfell) but when the reason is explained theyre (usually) pretty understanding.

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Patrograd's Annastian Adventures Mods
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http://www.geocities.com/patrograd/


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Aratex
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Mode_Locrian]
      #2932112 - 08/15/04 11:33 AM

Well, since you said everyone's opinion matters, I'd like to say a few words from a non-modder's perspective. I have some fairly basic CS knowledge, but I've yet to create anything new and would be a bit timid about the idea of fixing any but the smallest of conflicts. That said, I believe mod conflicts are a shared responsibility, with the ultimate decision being put in the hands of the player. It is a kind (and appreciated!) gesture to see modders trying to avoid and even go out of their way to fix conflicts with other popular mods and WIPs, but I can more than understand why there will always be times that those conflicts will exist. There is so much brilliant material being created and released by so many different parties that it would be impossible to totally avoid conflicts. Ultimately, it comes down to a user's decision to either pick and choose or, if possible, try to resolve conflicts him/her self. However, it is a very nice gesture to continue to see the authors of the community working together to avoid and fix conflicts for those of us with less technical knowledge.



Quote:

Further, so I don't sound like a total bad guy, I will be including an esp file that contains all of the weapons, armor, objects etc that you can acquire in Bjornholm without the landmass so, once you're done exploring the island, you can clean your save and use the items esp to retain all the loot that you've collected. With respect to avoiding conflicts, that's about the best solution I can come up with.




Genius! That is the best idea I've heard in a long time regarding big mod (I often refer to them as "mini-expansions" myself) compatibility. I'd love to see this idea become more widely used by modders.

--------------------
"I made a town where nobody wears pants, they all hate you, and constantly call you Frank." -- Pete Hines

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baratheon79
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Ronin49]
      #2932119 - 08/15/04 11:39 AM

When I release a mod, I try to keep it as conflict-free as possible, though in some instances I may just make a note of a conflict in the readme, and let the user deal with it as they choose.

Of course, when I'm developing a new mod, it only gets tested with those mods I happen to be using at that time, so there's bound to be some conflicts I'm not aware of. If a conflict turns up with a mod that I don't use, then I just have to decide whether to fix the issue or not (usually not, though, as I don't consider it a priority to fix conflicts between my mods and mods that I don't even use).

For example, the conflict between my Rethan Expansion mod and Join All Houses has been known to me for some time now, but I have yet to make even the slightest effort to fix the conflict. The reason for this is that I don't use Join All Houses in my own game. However, I do plan to resolve the issue in the next version using an extra patch esp. Also, while my mod is compatible with Indarys Unleashed, that was completely unintentional on my part. The two mods will not work together when I release the next version of my mod, due to the scope of the expansion I have planned.

In short, while I accept that modders could (and often should) try to minimize conflicts with other mods, we are under no obligation to download mods that we wouldn't otherwise bother with just to test for conflicts.

By the way, some may have noticed that when an issue arises with one of my mods, I don't make a habit of reuploading the mod with an updated readme. Given that I am on a dial-up connection, that just isn't feasible when a couple of my mods are in the 1meg+ range. Instead, when I learn of a conflict, I will either make a note of it in the mod description on the download page (those html pages are much smaller than most of my mods, and thus upload alot quicker) or I will make a post in my own forums. In other words, since information about the conflict is readily accessible to those who bother to look, I have fulfilled my only obligation in that regard as an active modder.

**EDIT**

On the subject of unique IDs, this is why everything in any of my mods (including the filename itself) uses the prefix "BAR" or sometimes "_BAR" (in case anyone has never noticed, the first three letters of my screen name). Since no one else uses that prefix, I can be sure that there will be no conflicts in that regard.

--------------------
My Morrowind Mods site and forums

Latest Release: Mercenary Pack Add-On 2: Guards

Edited by baratheon79 (08/15/04 11:53 AM)

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Cortex
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Ronin49]
      #2932134 - 08/15/04 11:51 AM

Its also nice if players can report any conflicts they find to modders so the modder can include it in his readme (after he tests it).

Many modders dont play the game much as they spend far too much time modding, and since there are thousands of mods out there, there is no hope he will know all the conflicts without this help.

Obviously the modder should check a few mods he thinks are likely to be used with his.

The modders responsibility should be makeing his mod not touch anything unrelated to his mod so limiting risk of conflicts.
Over-simplistic example: if you make a house mod with a nice looking suit of armor, you shouldnt change the nif on an existing suit of armor, but instead make a new armor id.

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Vampire Embrace 2.1

Vampire Werewolf 1.1

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Ronin49
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Ronin49]
      #2934385 - 08/16/04 12:39 AM

Comments:

First, some regret for the original Prologue . It appears that it was entirely unnecessary and perhaps somewhat presumptuous on my part. To everyone who has posted on this subject to this point, my thanks and respect for your thoughtful and informative responses. They certainly give a clear indication of the effort made by many accomplished mod makers to avoid conflicts wherever possible.

Secondly, it might have been useful for me to acknowledge at the beginning that there will always be some mod conflicts because:
  • There are upper limits to such fundamental factors as real estate and scripting possibilities that tend to force mods into each other's way.

  • Mod making is often an individual sport and it may, for some time, not be well known where and how a new mod operates. Mod makers build to their own purposes and communication is often good, courtesy of these and other forums, but incomplete because of the nature of the community.

  • There are four or five thousand mods about, some of which have diametrically opposed objectives. Take Cliff Racers as an obvious example: many mods with entirely different aims - turn them off, turn them up, make them go away, make them into birds, make them different colours - are clearly not all going to be compatible. They would not do what they were intended to do if they were compatible. And modifying flying lizards is the simplest case - no dialogue, no real estate conflict and no relationship or close proximity to quests or NPCs.

  • No doubt other reasons no that are not apparent to me at this instant. Anyone?

The point is that mod conflicts cannot be eliminated: that is neither possible nor desirable. They can however to some extent be reduced and
managed and that is what many mod makers seek to do on a daily basis. It would appear that this is pretty clearly understood by mod makers: it could usefully have been listed along with the other 'kids' to be gotten off the street at the top of my original post.


detritus2004 -
Quote:

I have made screenshots of the game map and the cs region map of my wip, showing the cells I'm changing. I do this because it's easier than just listing cell coordinates and I think people understand a visual image better than a list of numbers.


That is the impression I had too. Cell coordinates become more meaningful as you gain experience with the game and CS but have little meaning for most folk just starting out.


Mode_Locrian -
Quote:

I will be including an esp file that contains all of the weapons, armor, objects etc that you can acquire in Bjornholm without the landmass so, once you're done exploring the island, you can clean your save and use the items esp to retain all the loot that you've collected. With respect to avoiding conflicts, that's about the best solution I can come up with



That seems to me to be a very impressive solution indeed! It should encourage users toward a sequential approach to playing 'large mods", with far less concern about conflicts because they get to keep the more tangible rewards of that mod experience. Is this difficult to do in addition to the mod .esp itself? Has it been done by others?


Cortex -
Quote:

Its also nice if players can report any conflicts they find to modders so the modder can include it in his readme . . .


And I have the impression, from other comments elsewhere, that feed back of that sort is often lacking or limited. Is that correct?


It also struck me that that gamers with some reasonable level of player experience and a boatload of mods running at once can provide real assistance to a mod maker wanting to do a check of likely conflicts before release. Is that correct or merely Utopian?

Finally, it might be helpful if some other mod users joined the discussion. Anyone else wish to nudge these ideas along?

--------------------
"And to everyone seeing naked and headless people, READ THE README!!! It's the answer to all your troubles." Neoptolemus

Morrowind Mythic Mods ----> Ronin49's Lists & Links, Starting Out With Mods, Themed Mod Lists, Telesphoros' List o'Mods

Edited by Ronin49 (08/16/04 12:50 AM)

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grond
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Ronin49]
      #2934472 - 08/16/04 01:05 AM

Quote:


Mode_Locrian -
Quote:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will be including an esp file that contains all of the weapons, armor, objects etc that you can acquire in Bjornholm without the landmass so, once you're done exploring the island, you can clean your save and use the items esp to retain all the loot that you've collected. With respect to avoiding conflicts, that's about the best solution I can come up with




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Ronin-

Quote:

That seems to me to be a very impressive solution indeed! It should encourage users toward a sequential approach to playing 'large mods", with far less concern about conflicts because they get to keep the more tangible rewards of that mod experience. Is this difficult to do in addition to the mod .esp itself? Has it been done by others?







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I think it's a simple matter of collecting the items from your mod and creating and packing another .esp within the release, and I imagine that it's fairly easy.
Most brilliant ideas are quite simple, really.

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Stonewood Hall Version 1.1
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Ivza
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Ronin49]
      #2934621 - 08/16/04 01:47 AM

I have the habit of first posting here first a WIP-thread, in which I put out a beta for the mod to play. It shouldn't be a surprise that only a few download a beta, let alone comment if it conflicts with their mod configuration.

Because of this, I also post a REL-thread before I upload the mod anywhere else but my homepage, in hope of someone finding some conflict to add to the readme. This doesn't mean that I put out betas as releases, because if there are no conflicts detected within a day, I usually upload the version originally mentioned in the post to mod sites. For some reason or another, redwoodtreesprite was the first one beside myself to comment on an experienced conflict with my mod this weekend.

I would expect most conflicts to be noticed only after the mod is uploaded somewhere for the Great Public to use. Is a noticed conflict with a rare mod alone a sufficient reason to update the readme (and perhaps the mod itself) and upload it again to various sites, especially if the conflict is very minor and can be easily avoided? I'd rather update my mod pages to list these conflicts, but I doubt all modders have mod homepages on which to let people know of known conflicts and give quick fixes to them.

And I agree with Patrograd2 about using prefixes in custom objects... I tell the prefix I use (_ivza_##_) for each mod in the readme in part to ease up cleaning the mod from a save with TESAME. Unfortunately this isn't of any use to those who don't know how to use TESAME to clean savegames (and my readmes don't actually tell to do that...)

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My mods and utils: Icatos; Markov Name Generator; Amulet of Scrye; Haunted Tombs; Blight Bounties

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Reffa
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Ronin49]
      #2934648 - 08/16/04 02:05 AM

Coming from someone who has little-to-no skill in modding: I really feel that it is 100% up to the player as to which mods they use and to deal with conflicts those mods create. I would never ask a modder to change the works that they are creating based on what may or may not be a confliction issue. Modders need to create what they've got inmind, not what they think will blend seamlessly into what has already been created. Although I'm sure it is every modder's goal to create a mod that everyone can use and nobody will conflict with; that just isn't possible. I think the creative expression of each individual mod is much more important that hypothetical conflicts. And really, how often are those conflicts game-ending? I moved the Indy bank with the CS way before there was an Illuminated Order/Indy Bank Fix out. If those conflicts really are fatal to the game, then the player needs to make a choice as to which mod to play first, then simply follow the "How to play 2149 mods!!" guide.

Just my two-cents after way too much Guinness...

-Reffa

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'Do a search u lazy scrote monkey '
-mortimermcspongeington

Mage Mod Thread - post your Mage related mods here!
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Clone
Adept

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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Ivza]
      #2934659 - 08/16/04 02:10 AM

I'm going to have to agree with the statement by Pseron Wyrd. If I were to create another landmass like my first project "Sea of Destiny" the amount of conflicts on where to build it would take me forever to figure out the location. It is hard for us modders to make our mods conflict free because we can not try out every other mod.

I mean you the player, ask yourself can you try out all the mods and check what ones conflict and not? Us modders are in the same shoes of you. We are both equal. Without you the player, no one would play our mods. And without us, you still would be playing default Morrowind.

You the player should understand "most" modders work very hard on their mod and they should not have to worry about other mods when they build theirs. We have enough worries in the editor. Whining to us about conflicts does not help.

Really no whining should come because if you have two conflicting landmass, you can make two different saved games each with a landmass. But also remember us modders aren't evil, we do not try to make conflicts. We are just modding to make your game play experience better!

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Clone Gaming Studios
Current Project: Sea of Destiny 2

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detritus2004
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Ronin49]
      #2938991 - 08/17/04 05:24 AM

Speaking for myself, I try to avoid conflicts with other mods out of self-interest, not a sense of responsibility. I don't want all my hard work to be for nothing if it conflicts with a more popular mod. I think that is probably true for most other modders.

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Morrowind Mods by Detritus2004
Mystara's Morrowind Links
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skydye
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: detritus2004]
      #2939059 - 08/17/04 06:14 AM

No one is trying to make conflicts.But it's impossible to know every mod that will conflict with one you are making.The time spent checking each know mod against your own mod you are doing would make it 100% impossible to complete anything new.
Although I thought Bethesda should have checked with Clone before releasing Firemoth.These things just happen.

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Modding should be fun.
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Pseron Wyrd
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: skydye]
      #2939065 - 08/17/04 06:19 AM

Quote:

Bethesda should have checked with Clone before releasing Firemoth


That would've been tough for Bethesda to do, as Firemoth was released several months before clone even registered on this forum.

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slategrey
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Pseron Wyrd]
      #2939103 - 08/17/04 06:41 AM

A quick look at any decent site will show you that there are THOUSANDS of Mods out there. It's an impossibility to gaurantee that your Mod will not conflict with others

There are several things a modder can do to help the situation though, a few of which have been mentioned here.

1. If you add anything to the world give it a unique ID (I use Kai_ or Dresharii_ in my Mods)

2. If you use for example an item from someone elses mod in your own, and you've altered it in any way, give it a unique id, so that it doesn't conflict with the other mod. Not forgetting to ask permission of the original creator in the first place.

3. Avoid Balmora. No matter what you do, it will conflict with something

4. Documentation, Documentation. Give the players as much information as possible, including console codes for items. This will not only help the players, but is also a pretty nifty design document for when you come back to the mod later.

The Modders only real responsibility is to create a Mod that actually does what it says on the tin and doesn't leave the player staring at the windows desktop in frustration. However, most modders also go out of thier way to resolve conflicts with other mods. I spent a LARGE number of hours resolving a conflict with Primary Needs 2.6 and Kai Globes 2.7 (hence the release of 2.72). No one reported the problem to me, I found it on my own and set out to fix it. Why? If I want people to use my Mod, I have to make it as near conflict free as possible.

The difference between a modder and a great modder? Customer support.

The ultimate responsibility however has to be the players. Armed with all of the information they can get, they must make an informed decision as to whether the Mod is right for them.

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---------------------------------------------
Founder and "Soul" member of the "I love Kai Globes" Fan Club

Kai Globes v2.8, Apprentice Scrolls and Mystic Quills v1.4 . Don't leave Home without them.

Multi Manniquins V1.2; The Manniquin that changes to suit your needs.


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skydye
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Pseron Wyrd]
      #2939110 - 08/17/04 06:46 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Bethesda should have checked with Clone before releasing Firemoth


That would've been tough for Bethesda to do, as Firemoth was released several months before clone even registered on this forum.



my bad Pseron I didn't know that.that kind of takes the funniest out of the joke.I should never go for the late night laughs.

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Modding should be fun.
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skydye
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: slategrey]
      #2939117 - 08/17/04 06:52 AM

Quote:


2. If you use for example an item from someone Else's mod in your own, and you've altered it in any way, give it a unique id, so that it doesn't conflict with the other mod. Not forgetting to ask permission of the original creator in the first place.


--------------------------------------------------------



This makes the most sense but it's the biggest beginner mistake. Never use a unique Id that you have not renamed.If you can put things into a mesh and texture folder if possible.Like better heads and so on.

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Modding should be fun.
-------------------------------------
Future home of all my releases.
http://www.thelys.org/


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slategrey
Curate

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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: skydye]
      #2939125 - 08/17/04 06:59 AM

Quote:

Quote:


2. If you use for example an item from someone Else's mod in your own, and you've altered it in any way, give it a unique id, so that it doesn't conflict with the other mod. Not forgetting to ask permission of the original creator in the first place.


--------------------------------------------------------



This makes the most sense but it's the biggest beginner mistake. Never use a unique Id that you have not renamed.If you can put things into a mesh and texture folder if possible.Like better heads and so on.




Also sound advice. Saves problems when it comes time for the mod to be uninstalled.

--------------------
---------------------------------------------
Founder and "Soul" member of the "I love Kai Globes" Fan Club

Kai Globes v2.8, Apprentice Scrolls and Mystic Quills v1.4 . Don't leave Home without them.

Multi Manniquins V1.2; The Manniquin that changes to suit your needs.


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qarl
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: slategrey]
      #2939276 - 08/17/04 08:23 AM

This has been on my mind a lot lately and as most people here, I've always strived to attain the least amount of conflicts possible in my mods. To that end, my latest quest mod is almost entirely done in interior cells. Now I'm not suggesting everyone do this -wouldn't that be boring? But for the theme of my my it works out great.

Anyway, there's something I haven't seen mentioned that's also been on my mind and that is will my mod fit seamlessly into the universe created by Bethesda and will it philosophically conflict with any other popular mods? For instance, I'm making a mod which has a lot of vampire NPCs and explores their day to day existence. There are many books and films on the subject which contrast wildly with each other and most are completely different from the vamps in MW. I don't know of any vamp movies where the vampires have glowing eyes and walk around with their mouths open all day. Further, the original game doesn't really delve into their lives at all. They're pretty much just evil monsters without any sort of passions and foibles which make things more interesting and life-like -save the few clan-related things. but where's the I-fell-in-love-with-a-teen-age-vampire stories? Or life growing up with a father who is a dremora and mother who is a vampire. So when making a mod based on their lives I have to break new ground, but will it contradict things said or done in other popular vampire mods out there? Probably to some degree, but I'm trying to minimize it. So anyway, I just thought I'd bring up another type of conflict that's a bit more subtle and often overlooked. (And maybe I'm being a tad anal. )

--------------------
-qarl
@}-----;----
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WIP: The Underground
Tutorials

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andyw
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: slategrey]
      #2939297 - 08/17/04 08:30 AM

Well, my take on this (as a non-modder) is as follows. I see no reason why modders should avoid or fix conflicts. It's much appreciated if they do, but as a software engineer I understand how much work it is. Hard, boring work.

However, as a player, I *really* want to know about conflicts in advance. And as a dial up user, I don't want to download a massive mod just to check its readme.

It would be an immense boon if there were someplace where knowledge of mod conflicts were gathered, so I can decide what to download.

I know this sounds arrogant and demanding, especially as I have no free time to gather this information myself. Of course, what I want *isn't* the same as what I expect (or ask)!

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skydye
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: qarl]
      #2939307 - 08/17/04 08:36 AM

Quote:

This has been on my mind a lot lately and as most people here, I've always strived to attain the least amount of conflicts possible in my mods. To that end, my latest quest mod is almost entirely done in interior cells. Now I'm not suggesting everyone do this -wouldn't that be boring? But for the theme of my my it works out great.

Anyway, there's something I haven't seen mentioned that's also been on my mind and that is will my mod fit seamlessly into the universe created by Bethesda and will it philosophically conflict with any other popular mods? For instance, I'm making a mod which has a lot of vampire NPCs and explores their day to day existence. There are many books and films on the subject which contrast wildly with each other and most are completely different from the vamps in MW. I don't know of any vamp movies where the vampires have glowing eyes and walk around with their mouths open all day. Further, the original game doesn't really delve into their lives at all. They're pretty much just evil monsters without any sort of passions and foibles which make things more interesting and life-like -save the few clan-related things. but where's the I-fell-in-love-with-a-teen-age-vampire stories? Or life growing up with a father who is a dremora and mother who is a vampire. So when making a mod based on their lives I have to break new ground, but will it contradict things said or done in other popular vampire mods out there? Probably to some degree, but I'm trying to minimize it. So anyway, I just thought I'd bring up another type of conflict that's a bit more subtle and often overlooked. (And maybe I'm being a tad anal. )



The benefits to a mostly in door mod are.#1 you can control the textures,so it's not like the city of balmora where the game set itself to redraw every little thing.As an In door you control that.
#2 coloring as an indoor mod you can set the color and mood of all the rooms.#3 naming textures.You can rename all the textures as not else will be using them.#4 scripting point,#5 music points.The bottom line is it's possible to do a whole new world with an indoor mod.

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Modding should be fun.
-------------------------------------
Future home of all my releases.
http://www.thelys.org/


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qarl
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: skydye]
      #2939354 - 08/17/04 08:59 AM

Quote:

The benefits to a mostly in door mod are.#1 you can control the textures,so it's not like the city of balmora where the game set itself to redraw every little thing.As an In door you control that.
#2 coloring as an indoor mod you can set the color and mood of all the rooms.#3 naming textures.You can rename all the textures as not else will be using them.#4 scripting point,#5 music points.The bottom line is it's possible to do a whole new world with an indoor mod.




Yep. I'm happily doing all of that. It's amazing too the huge size of an indoor cell you can have and not get the slowdown you would with an outdoor cell. But the scripting and the music are really nice to be able to control in interior cells. The only thing that sucks is the music changing during battle. Some cells I just avoid putting monsters in, but some cells I put in so many little, easy to kill monsters that resurrect themselves that your going to be fighting the whole time you're in the cell. This keeps the music as you set it as well.

--------------------
-qarl
@}-----;----
Visual Pack XT
WIP: The Underground
Tutorials

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slategrey
Curate

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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: qarl]
      #2939428 - 08/17/04 09:43 AM

You'll have to tell me your secret qarl. I'm getting slowdown in my interior cell. It's a building with 600 objects. Only a couple of scripted objects as well.
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--------------------
---------------------------------------------
Founder and "Soul" member of the "I love Kai Globes" Fan Club

Kai Globes v2.8, Apprentice Scrolls and Mystic Quills v1.4 . Don't leave Home without them.

Multi Manniquins V1.2; The Manniquin that changes to suit your needs.


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Aratex
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: andyw]
      #2939440 - 08/17/04 09:52 AM

Quote:

It would be an immense boon if there were someplace where knowledge of mod conflicts were gathered, so I can decide what to download.




Telesphoros covers conflicts in his mod lists... Obviously, he can't cover every mod in the universe, but he covers a great many.

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"I made a town where nobody wears pants, they all hate you, and constantly call you Frank." -- Pete Hines

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qarl
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: slategrey]
      #2939454 - 08/17/04 09:56 AM

Quote:

You'll have to tell me your secret qarl. I'm getting slowdown in my interior cell. It's a building with 600 objects. Only a couple of scripted objects as well.
-------------------




Hmmm, well, I have heard that on occasion weird fps things just happen that are inexplicable and people have actually solved the problem by copying everything in the cell, creating a new cell and pasting everything in. Then for some reason the new cell -which is exactly the same as the old one, works fine with no slowdown. Might be worth a try.

--------------------
-qarl
@}-----;----
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WIP: The Underground
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Silaria
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: qarl]
      #2939678 - 08/17/04 11:04 AM

If this has been suggested already, just let me know. But how feesible would it be for one person to open a free Freewebs site (or something free), give out the password to modders, and allow them to post changes to the website in regards to landmass locations? This to avoid conflicting with other mods. I know for a fact that I don't check every mod in existance to see if my vendors/ houses are going to conflict with someone elses mod. I just don't have that time on my hands. However if we broke something out by cell, then at least we'd have some reference to work off of.

This would take operating on a high level of trust though, something I would hope most modders would take seriously. That or we would be reduced to one or two people making updates.

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----^----<{@
Morrowind Visions
----^----<{@ <- Given to me by Vorwoda_the_Black
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Vincent Dragon
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Ronin49]
      #2939765 - 08/17/04 11:42 AM

not sure if this was maybe mentioned before but sometimes it just happens that someone start to make mod for fun or training than end up with great mod..and he dosent know how to move it... cant really blaim him..maybe there should be a good guide on moving locations..oh and as someone sad the ID factor is huge...original A REALLY Original and unique name should be used for id/texture/mesh names....

GL

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||WI veteran||WI_Beta.zip unzipped :933mb lol||

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slategrey
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Vincent Dragon]
      #2939874 - 08/17/04 12:25 PM

Thanks for the tip qarl. I've got nothing to lose by trying it

--------------------
---------------------------------------------
Founder and "Soul" member of the "I love Kai Globes" Fan Club

Kai Globes v2.8, Apprentice Scrolls and Mystic Quills v1.4 . Don't leave Home without them.

Multi Manniquins V1.2; The Manniquin that changes to suit your needs.


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Pseron Wyrd
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: skydye]
      #2940035 - 08/17/04 01:25 PM

Quote:

that kind of takes the funniest out of the joke


You know, I wondered if this was a joke. I even started to edit in a new sentence: "unless this is a joke..." at the bottom but gave up because I was getting tired.

See the problem is, we don't get a lot of subtle humor around here. We don't get a lot of subtle anything around here. It's easy to mis-recognize.

To add to the confusion, I once saw your 'joke' posted as a serious remark, believe it or not (I know it was serious because he tried to defend his comment later in the thread). A great many people posting on these forums now weren't around when Firemoth was released. Nobody remembers Morrowind mod history anymore. *spits tobacco juice* Why, back in my day...

But anyway, I apologize for stepping all over your joke.

--------------------
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"I have been imagining you are exquisitely unattractive" - brash, 10.05.03
"You look very much like I thought you would" - brash, 10.06.03

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lancer31
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Ronin49]
      #2940641 - 08/17/04 04:02 PM

I read through this thread, and don't come close to having the brains
to help much, but if a beginning modder reads this, please don't put
a file in called "ReadMe", or "Read-Me". I'm pretty sure those
have been used before.
While I may have wimped and whined about conflicts before, I know
that I am responsible for my own actions, whatever they may be,
including trying an interesting sounding mod. There may be one area
where problems crop up, that there is no hope for, but I certainly
don't know for sure. This is the language, keyboard, and other
subtle differences between various countries, including, apparently,
operating system, (Windows, I guess), variations.
What does this all mean to me as a mod user? Not a hell of a lot,
really. I have many mods that no matter how hard I tried to follow
the maker's instructions, (sometimes very kindly responding to
personal requests), I never could get all the "meshes",
"textures", and all that stuff, to end up in the right places.
Hardly the end of the world, there's hundreds more to try!
I did open a file in the CS today for the first time, but whatever
it was that I thought I was fixing, wasn't fixed, but it's OK.
One final thought for other mod users,
(everybody knows this, right?) Don't "X" more than one mod at a time! That makes it easier
to get rid of that fool running around in the yellow diamond suit.

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Thepal
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Ronin49]
      #2941622 - 08/17/04 09:01 PM

Well, I've read about half the posts in this thread. I don't really feel like reading the rest.

Anyway, my opinions:

Modders have no responsibility at all the make their mod compatible with others. Yes, they should do sensible things like not naming their readme file "readme.txt" but instead "My wonderful mod of modding's name readme.txt" and they shouldn't edit the Main script.

There are thousands of mods out there. Hundreds probably edit Seyda Neen. Does that mean people shouldn't make a mod there? Of course not. Caius has probably been edited by dozens of mods, but that doesn't mean another mod shouldn't be made doing things with him.

If someone was to make a mod that adds dozens of new monsters to the game they shouldn't have to make it compatible with GIANTS, Morrowind Additions, Cait's Critters and the rest of the mods that do the same. If someone was to make a Ranger/Archery mod they shouldn't have to seek out all the other ranger mods out there and make sure they are compatible.

If you expect modders to download every similar mod, ones that they don't even use or want to use themselves, just to make their mod compatible then you will almost never see any new mods. This is what ultimately destroyed my Life to Morrowind project. I tried to keep it compatible and in the end it just made everything too difficult to do and time-consuming.

--------------------
-==Thepal==-

Creator of the Unofficial Patch. For info on that or my Ultima 9 remake or my Quest for Glory remakes go to: http://etherealsoftware.com.au/forum/index.php

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Emma
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Thepal]
      #2942466 - 08/18/04 02:49 AM

You are mostly talking landmasses here, but as the topic is "mod conflicts", I would want to point you to this thread by JOG with vital information on how to avoid conflicts in the dialog greetings sections.

http://www.elderscrolls.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2007868&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

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skydye
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Pseron Wyrd]
      #2942599 - 08/18/04 03:51 AM

Quote:

Quote:

that kind of takes the funniest out of the joke


You know, I wondered if this was a joke. I even started to edit in a new sentence: "unless this is a joke..." at the bottom but gave up because I was getting tired.

See the problem is, we don't get a lot of subtle humor around here. We don't get a lot of subtle anything around here. It's easy to mis-recognize.

To add to the confusion, I once saw your 'joke' posted as a serious remark, believe it or not (I know it was serious because he tried to defend his comment later in the thread). A great many people posting on these forums now weren't around when Firemoth was released. Nobody remembers Morrowind mod history anymore. *spits tobacco juice* Why, back in my day...

But anyway, I apologize for stepping all over your joke.



lol *spits tobacco Juice*Yes these young whippersnappers now a days.They are all talent and no humor.

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Thepal
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Emma]
      #2942604 - 08/18/04 03:55 AM

Landmass conflicts were only mentioned once in my post... I also mentioned scripts, and other mods that have nothing at all to do with landmasses (ranger mods, etc). I almost never deal with landmasses so I my mind definately wasn't on them.

The fact is that mods, especially similar ones, will conflict. That's just the way it works. When someone releases a mod they shouldn't have to make sure it works with other mods, and here is one very good reason.

What mods are they meant to make it compatible with? There are thousands of mods out there? Are they meant to make it compatible with all of them? If not, which ones? The most popular ones? The best ones? Who decides which are the best? The modder mightn't want to bother making it compatible with GIANTS since they don't like it and yet a lot of people use that. Should they therefore have to download it, look through all the scripts and additions and make sure there are no conflicts?

If someone makes a new vampire mod, should they have to make it compatible with Vampire Embrace and the other vampire mods out there? Most of them change a lot about how vampires are handled in the game and would completely destroy a lot of mods out there if they had to be made compatible.

Personally, I don't use any mods while playing except Real Signposts, Rhedd's Heads and my patch. If I was to make a mod would I then be expected to download all the popular mods out there and test everything with them all installed and then spend days/weeks/months fixing any bugs/conflicts? Or even worse, should I have to take into account every mod out there while creating the mod to try to keep things compatible? (as I did with LtM which made everything almost impossible and in the end led to it being abandoned)

The modder should not have to worry about their mod conflicting with other mods, unless they really want to. Unless you've made a mod that adds more than some models or a house or some simple scripting you'll have no idea what conflict really means.

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Emma
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Thepal]
      #2942804 - 08/18/04 05:20 AM

Thepal,
I was replying to this whole thread, not only to you, sorry if you misinterpreted me.


As for GIANTS, it produces so many conflicts with other mods (for instance race-filtered voice entries at the top of the voice section, which will overwrite all ID-filtered voice entries), so that would probably be the main reason why a modder would want to take a look at it before release (I have a warning in the readme for some of my quests- and companion mods that some of the features won't show up if the player is running a version of GIANTS that are newer than my mods).

Quote:

The modder should not have to worry about their mod conflicting with other mods, unless they really want to. Unless you've made a mod that adds more than some models or a house or some simple scripting you'll have no idea what conflict really means.




Guess it's up to every modders' own judgement to decide how much time he wants to spend on researching work by others in order to avoid specific conflicts. But I assume that most people that make a quest mod would avoid adding a house in Balmora to this mod, as that is obviously bound to cause loads of conflicts (as Balmora has more house mods than any other area), and probably the modder would also avoid to add new greetings to MW-quest npcs, as there would be an obvious chance for conflicts.

I do believe, though, that modders have a responsability to avoid "general" conflicts, for instance by setting up dialog and scripts in a way that won't ruin the work by others.

And as I actually have made mods that adds more than some models or a house or some simple scripting, I do have an idea what conflict really means (but I take it this sentence wasn't directed specifically to me ).



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Thepal
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Emma]
      #2942843 - 08/18/04 05:43 AM

Heh, yeah, the comment definately wasn't directed at you :P

I thinked I'm kinda biased against any and all conflict fixing as you can probably tell :P I've done enough that I now hate it very, very much. Hence deciding to just stick to TCs.

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-==Thepal==-

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Ivza
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Emma]
      #2943119 - 08/18/04 07:32 AM

Emma, thank you VERY much for that link - I never read the editor forum, so I've never read about this... (and if I'm not terribly wrong, my first post on these forums was a question of asking how to make clean dialogue - I think it went unanswered then, but at last I have my answer )

Although now that I know I should move my dialogues entries from the end of the list to the middle... (/me thinks of the amount of dialogue that should be moved) <sigh>

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Emma
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Ivza]
      #2943454 - 08/18/04 09:53 AM

Quote:

Emma, thank you VERY much for that link - I never read the editor forum, so I've never read about this... (and if I'm not terribly wrong, my first post on these forums was a question of asking how to make clean dialogue - I think it went unanswered then, but at last I have my answer )

Although now that I know I should move my dialogues entries from the end of the list to the middle... (/me thinks of the amount of dialogue that should be moved) <sigh>




If you are interested in dialog, you might find this thread useful: http://www.elderscrolls.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1227862

Also check out Srikandi't tutorial, linked from that thread.

As for your specific <sigh>, this shouldn't be that hard. Just move a few of the last Bethesda dialog lines to the bottom instead of moving all your dialog entries upwards. Just make sure that the dialog lines end up in exactly the right order!!
Then, you can clean away the * either with TESAME or in the details list of the constructions set.

Thepal,
Being an Ultima fan, I must say that I'm very much looking forward to your TC-project!

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DinkumThinkum
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Ronin49]
      #2943867 - 08/18/04 12:32 PM

As far as the issues of conflicting landmasses, houses in the same locations, etc.:

There've been repeated efforts in this forum over the last couple of years to compile lists of locations used by mods, set up a database, etc. As far as I know, every one of them fizzled out fairly quickly.

Too much work for the person organizing the information, too few modders submitting information or helping to put it all together, too much clutter from WIP mods that never get past the wishful thinking stage, etc.

Obviously, it would be nice if modders checked the locations of very popular mods before picking a home for their new landmass, town, etc. But there are just too many mods out there for anybody to do any kind of thorough check in a reasonable amount of time.


The idea (mentioned earlier in this thread) of including a map with a mod is excellent, and doesn't require any special skills or effort: the modder just puts his character at the location used by the mod, maximizes the map window, and takes a screen shot.

That would at least make it easier for a mod user to spot a conflict before he installs a new mod and discovers that his house is now buried under a new merchant's shop...


Also, for any modders not aware of it: there is a utility, TESFaith, for moving exterior cells (including objects and landscaping) to new locations. I've never used it, but it's discussed occasionally in the Construction Set forum, and you should be able to find it at most major Morrowind download sites.

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Matthew13
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Ivza]
      #2945242 - 08/18/04 08:39 PM

A quick note on avoiding dialogue conflicts. I'd say that 90+% of all dialogue conflicts are caused by not properly filtering the dialogue. For example, remove that individual ID filter on the "Squeek" greeting in Greeting 0 and suddenly everybody in Morrowind is a mouse.

Filtering greeting dialogue is not so much a matter of where it is in the stack. All of my dialogue is in Greeting 0 at the top. It is a matter of narrowly filtering it. All of my greeting dialogue is filtered to an individual ID, to a faction that I've created, or to cells that I have created. . .AT A MINIMUM. Much of it is also filtered according to quests that are ongoing, PCVampire, and PCSex. Mostly this is just a matter of being anal retentive, because screwing this up can be more irritating than cliff racers.

So, there's my two cents worth. . .hope it's worth the price.


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Nadra
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Ronin49]
      #2945770 - 08/18/04 11:04 PM

As a mod user that frequents the forum looking for new releases I think a responsible part of release is letting users know if there are potential conflicts with other major mods. By major I mean that there are probably a couple of hundred very well known mods out of the thousands available that most seasoned players making mods would have or most new users would be directed to in the quest, conversion, replacer and housing categories that do butt up against each other. A novice is going to need a warning label so they don't think the game is broken or your mod is bad. At the novice level it was hard for me to figure out if I had a real conflict or a badly built mod. When choosing a mod I look at user feedback posts and at category conflict. Also having some categoric warning of potential conflict helps determine playing order for some mods. For example I have Skeleton Island and the Black Queen Chronicles. I am going to play through one of these first because there is a known conflict with one of the landmasses. This is much better for me to know rather than loading everyhing into my game and then wondering why nothing works and then posting there is something wrong with the mod.

One of the things I have learned to do for better or worse for miscellaneous tweaks and clothing mods is check the location of these new NPC's, or houses in the CS and see if there is a conflict. If I really like what the new mod adds to the game I will move the colliding houses or reassign the NPC to a more convenient location for myself. This isn't possible for quest mods so I am always careful to check the readme to see where new buildings are added and if there is an overwrite problem. As a user I would prefer to know if there were dialogue conflicts between certain mods in advance becasue I am not really capable of correcting those kind of things and I woud prefer not to destroy my in game experience if I can avoid it. Downloding a mod is a hopeful experience. You want it to work, run smoothly and add fun and color to the game. I don't believe you have to post all potential conflicts, but I think if you can check for major releases in your category that could conflict with your work you should indicate that in the readme.

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Polycrates
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Nadra]
      #2945867 - 08/18/04 11:45 PM

Nadra, the problem with that is that major releases are often just that - the Horror mod for example is over 80mb, and there are plenty of other mods over 10mb. For some of us it is just not practical to download these things, even for our own use, and especially not just to test if there's some sort of incompatibility.



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Ronin49
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Polycrates]
      #2945929 - 08/19/04 12:11 AM

Polycrates -
Quote:

For some of us it is just not practical to download these things, even for our own use, and especially not just to test if there's some sort of incompatibility.



That, I think, is a reasonable practical difficulty that has been raised by several mod makers. I get the impression that most folk actually making mods will have few loaded. The point made by a few others, I thought, was that one can reasonably expect that some number of other mods will be run at the same time so the mod will almost certainly not be running in an otherwise mod-free environment.

What about this suggestion?
Quote:

It also struck me that that gamers with some reasonable level of player experience and a boatload of mods running at once can provide real assistance to a mod maker wanting to do a check of likely conflicts before release. Is that correct or merely Utopian?




I would have thought that is where folk who want to help but do not themselves mod could do their part to contribute?



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Nadra
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Polycrates]
      #2945933 - 08/19/04 12:12 AM

Polycrates, I don't think you will need to test all of the major releases. I think for inexperienced users it would be worthwhile in the readme section to point out where potential conflict may lie. For example heavily scripted and dialogued quest mods can overwright one another. This gives the user a way to troubleshoot and ask better questions should they get stuck or need help with a fix.

Perhaps it would be helpful in the beta to solicit for specific feedback from those users that are using some of the major mods. Another thought is to pin to this forum or somewhere what the most common conflicts are and how work around them.

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Pseron Wyrd
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Nadra]
      #2946276 - 08/19/04 03:36 AM

Quote:

it would be worthwhile in the readme section to point out where potential conflict may lie




That's fine advice, for mods that have been BETA'ed. But as you can tell from glancing over the first page of mods at Euro-RPG, if you have the stomach for it (multiple versions of mods uploaded again and again, often within hours) an increasing number of modders these days do not bother to beta test their mods. Read the [REL] threads in this forum and you will see, time after time, some variant of "Well, I haven't really tested this much, but here it is. Lemme know if you find any problems." These people aren't going to have the slightest clue whether their mods conflict with anything.

You have two problems here: 1) that a great many modders don't bother to play the game anymore and have likely lost touch with how mods react to one another. (I will go further than this: I believe many modders tacitly assume that their mod will be the only one of its kind installed in your game. How else to explain a house mod whose landscaping alters unnecessarily vast tracts of land in all directions? Or, for that matter, the gazillion mods set in Seyda Neen and Balmora? Modders, being creative people, tend to live in their own little worlds). This is a problem in all the arts, not just in modding. Artists want their work patronized but are notorious for not patronizing the work of others. Writers - myself included - are well-known for opening a literary magazine only when their work is featured. You see it here in the Mods Forum in the form of countless complaints that nobody is responding to a [WIP] or [REL] thread. I have had to point out to a few of these people that they are, for the most part, talking to other modders, people who are engaged in their own projects and who are here, many of them, mainly to promote their own work. How many modders around here post mainly in their own threads? I will let the reader answer that question.

2) An unfortunate fact: mods nowadys are getting huger and huger. They're gargantuan, some of them. 10 meg mods were practically unknown two years ago. Now it's becoming rare to find even a house mod these days that is under 5 megs. Modders have contracted 'Blockbuster Syndrome': every mod seemingly has to be bigger and flashier, contain more trinkets, gizmos, baubles and bangles than the last mod of its kind. Mod-makers apparently think it's necessary to cram their works with new textures, new meshes, new icons, even new music *shudders* or 'the public' won't be interested. Too many mods are full of uninteresting bloat.

I will tell you a little secret: many players don't donwload these monsters. We write glowing posts in [REL] threads and may even say we'll download this beauty as soon as we get home from work (yeah, right) but if you take an anonymous poll of forum members I think you will find that relatively few of us have had the patience to download 40 meg or 80 meg mods. Even fewer of us have actually played through them. It is not an easy task to find beta testers who have played through huge mods, as wonderful as some of them are, and can tell you how your mod conflicts.

So - where is the data for your readme warnings going to come from? From modders? Not likely, too many of them are too busy modding. From the players? Yes, but less than half of us players on the forum, by my unscientific guess, have actually played all the way through some of these mega-mods. Those few of us who have the necessary dialog and journal entries stored in a save game and who are willing to beta test and who are articulate enough to write a critique worth reading are few and far between. And that's assuming, of course, that our modder even bothers to beta test in the first place...

I don't want to sound pessimistic here, but I'm afraid that pointing out potential conflicts in readme's is not likely to happen anytime soon.

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Ivza
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Pseron Wyrd]
      #2946325 - 08/19/04 04:11 AM

Quote:

How many modders around here post mainly in their own threads?


I confess. (Although I've been trying to behave better. Really. The results just aren't that good.)

Quote:

I don't want to sound pessimistic here, but I'm afraid that pointing out potential conflicts in readme's is not likely to happen anytime soon.



Sure, telling "this mod might conflict with mods A through H" is not likely to happen, but telling "this mod might/will conflict with other residence mods just south of Balmora" is not that difficult to come up with. Or saying "this mod is likely to conflict with mods that do something to this-and-that creature". Or "you should use a leveled list merger". The infamous anonymous modder won't even have to play the mod to be able to mention this kind of warnings. Of course, these tend to get too technical or just blatantly obvious for most players

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GreenEyedYam
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: Ronin49]
      #2946415 - 08/19/04 05:03 AM

Well, I skimmed the thread, and now I'll toss in my 2 cents -

I think modders make and release mods for 2 reasons - they enjoy doing something creative, and they want other people to see, experience, and enjoy their creations. Some people place more value on the first reason, and others focus on the second, but both are always factors.

As far as responsibilities, modders work for free and for fun. They owe the user nothing, and they have absolutely no responsibility to make their mod work with any other mod. I do believe that modders ought to test their work, clean their .ESPs, and make a point of not screwing up the game, but that falls under best-practice, not responsibility. We all use every mod at our own risk and with no guarantees.

Having stated that modders really have no responsibilities to their consumers, it's worth noting that if they want to fulfill their second desire - to have their work seen and admired by others - then obviously best-practice would be to take some time to ensure that they make a product that's as well-crafted and conflict-free as possible. Every bug and/or conflict decreases their potential audience.

So with that in mind, it makes sense for modders to be aware of the more popular mods and to try not to conflict with them. They don't have to, but then nobody has to DL their work either.

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andyw
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Re: Mod Conflicts - Responsibilities of Mod Makers and Mod Users [Re: GreenEyedYam]
      #2946641 - 08/19/04 08:20 AM

My apologies if I'm re-stating something (just skimming during my lunch break!), but would a thread called 'I found a mod conflict' be any help? Sure, this would consist largely of people *asking* about conflicts, and would go moribund eventually, but while it lived it could collect a lot of info. And it seems clear that info about conflicts (rather than fixing/avoiding them) is going to be useful.

Telesphorus' list of mods isn't really a good place, as it's a web page that needs regular updating, while a thread is more convenient and spontaneous.

Just a thought.

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