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tru021
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Reged: 07/03/04
Posts: 5
TESTool Merged list question - a problem?
      #2759287 - 07/03/04 07:15 PM

Hi

After a long time away from Morrowind I have returned and downloaded many wondeful mods. Kudos to all the creators - far, far too many to thank individually. And sorry for the long winded question and a bit vague as I'm away from my home PC and cannot check the exact details.

I used TESTool to clean and create merged objects and lists and then started my new game. The two merged esps were the last two in the list of files to load. So there I was happily rediscovering the world when it dawned on me that I was only seeing half the expected new creatures and I think that the way TESTool constructs the levelled creatures lists may be the culprit.

It merged the esm creature files (Giants Ultimate, Morrowind Comes Alive 2.1 and Morrowind Advanced 1.82) fine in that these had entries ascending order according to the player level. However, the esps (Morrowind Comes Alive 2.1 Wilderness, The Undead, Createure Pack 1.1 and Primal) it added after the esm portion of the list.

This made lists looks like the following template - viewed in TSPCD(something like this):

1 Start Esm creatures
...
n Highest esm creature
1 esp creature list 1
..
m highest creature esp list 1
1 esp creature list 2
...
o highest creature esp list 2

and so on

The problem was that I was never ever encountering any of the creatures from any of the esp plugins - despite the chances saying that I should - for example the mudcrabs from creature pack until my player level exceeded the highest level in the esm portion (achived by testing - okay cheating to raise the pc level) . At which stage I saw examples of all the creatures. I dug out my old copy of Horatio's list tool and used it to create the lists - it created the lists from all the plugins in the expected numeric order 1-n. Then with my new character I started exploring the bitter coast again, and lo and behold I saw my creature pack mudcrabs.

Therefore my question is this a known problem with TESTool or just my unfortunate luck as I cannot even reorder the lists in the construction set afterwards. I mean I could use Horatio but I really like the combined aspects of TESTool - and it offcourse is only a problem for low level characters as the lists work fine at high levels.

Cheers for any insights or assistance.


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Farvat
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: tru021]
      #2759370 - 07/03/04 08:07 PM

You don't see any creatures from the Wildernes mod flying around? If you say so it's very strange because wlderness adds many new spawn point. About the others esp mods i have tha same sensation, the testool seems to work better with its merged list at high level.
I never encountered any creatures from various esp like Undead and
Morrowind comes alive.
Another problems that i've found is related to vampire realism 1.2, the wilderness and the city became full of vampires, Too many i think. I don't know if this is a problem in the testool or a conflict.

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Pseron Wyrd
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: tru021]
      #2759729 - 07/03/04 11:30 PM

I can't say I've ever heard anybody speak of this problem before. The only solution I can see (other than to rewrite TESTool code) might be to convert your creature .esps to .esms, or .esms to .esps so that they can be merged equally. I haven't run any creature mods that come in .esp form since I began using TESTool so I can't comment directly on your problem, except to say that seeing a few creatures at a later date seems to me a small price to pay to be rid of the '10 items to a crate' and '0 items to a crate' syndromes.

And Farvat: as far as I can tell tru021 is not using the Wilderness mod.

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tru021
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: tru021]
      #2760091 - 07/04/04 02:04 AM

Thanks Pseron, and normally I would agree that it was a small price to pay if for some of the lists the highest level wasn't in the 30s - along, long way away for my poor 6th level mage. So I shall investigate the conversion to esms - failing that some judicious hand editing of lists - using TESTool for items and Horatio for creatures.

Nope no Wilderness mod here, I gave up after witnessing one flying fish too many.

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DinkumThinkum
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: tru021]
      #2965113 - 08/25/04 01:42 AM

I did some testing with the list merger function in TESTool, and I can definitely confirm that there's a real problem with it. I PMed Ghostwheel about this over a week ago, but haven't heard anything back from him: so I'll go ahead and post my results here.

Put simply, the list merger function does not merge the entries in leveled lists. Instead, it just appends new entries at the end of the first list processed, in the order that the plugins are loaded, rather than merging the entries at their correct position based on their level. So you can wind up with a mis-sorted list with lower level creatures or items listed after higher level entries.

What that means is that creatures or items in some mods won't show up until the player is at a higher level than the one at which the creatures are supposed to appear. For example, creatures or loot meant for low-level players may not show up until the player is level 10, 20, 40, or even higher, depending on which mods are being used.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

In my testing, the problem showed up with both leveled creature lists and leveled items lists.

Also, both .esm and .esp mods are merged incorrectly. I checked with two test .esm files, two and three .esp files, and with one .esm and one .esp file. Since .esm files are loaded first, their list entries were placed ahead of the .esp list entries, but otherwise there wasn't any difference in the way lists in .esm and .esp files were combined: entries were appended, rather than merged.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

How much effect this will have on a mod user depends on their character's level and what type of mods they're using. But I think that if you're using mods that add both high and low level creatures or loot, there's a good chance that at least some of the new creatures or loot aren't showing up in your game, especially if you're not playing a very high level character.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I did some quick tests with Horatio's leveled list merger utility, and that did merge the lists, rather than just appending them. So using that instead of the list merger in TESTool is one possibility.

Another possibility is to use the Construction Set to fix the lists produced by the TESTool merger command. All you have to do is reenter the level number for one entry on a mis-sorted list, and the editor will re-sort the list entries into the correct order.

For example: if one entry on a mis-sorted list looks like '1 rat', just re-enter the '1'. Don't need to change it, just type a '1' over top of the '1' that's already there, and that will force the Construction Set to re-sort the list.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

If anybody is in touch with Ghostwheel, you might ask him to take a look at this thread. No idea if he's still involved with Morrowind or supporting TESTool, but it shouldn't hurt to at least let him know about this problem.

For those who want to see the problem for themselves, I'll post again shortly about how to demonstrate the bug. Right now, I need a break.

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DinkumThinkum
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: DinkumThinkum]
      #2967752 - 08/25/04 03:44 PM

Note to mod makers who add creatures or items to leveled lists:

Rather than leaving your mods at the mercy of the problems in the two leveled list merger tools, you might want to consider using the script functions included in Tribunal and Bloodmoon to add new entries to existing leveled lists. Obviously not an option if your mod is designed not to need either expansion, but otherwise it might be a safer way to go.

I haven't heard of any problems using the 'AddToLevCreature' and 'AddToLevItem' functions.

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ninjagaidan1
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: tru021]
      #2967777 - 08/25/04 03:56 PM

well this explain why some of giant s creatures arnt appearing at the right lvl

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DinkumThinkum
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: DinkumThinkum]
      #2967942 - 08/25/04 05:24 PM

For testing the leveled list merger tool, I used the leveled list near the Seyda Neen lighthouse: the one that puts a mud crab there for new characters to practice killing things.

Editing that list makes a handy demo for those who want to see the list merger problem for themselves:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

To demonstrate the bug, we need to create two test .esp files; I'll call them 'Older.esp' and 'Newer.esp' so it's easy to keep track of their creation order.

Open up the Construction Set and load the masters normally. On the 'Leveled Creatures' tab, find the list "ex_shore_all_lev+0" (that's the one near the Seyda Neen lighthouse).

Make the following changes to that list:

1. Set 'chance of none' to 0 (easier to test if the creatures always show up).

2. Add an 'alit' at level 1 and a 'golden saint' at level 18 to the list: open the list, then drag and drop the creatures onto the list from the creature tab. Edit the levels the creatures will show up at by single-clicking twice on the number and entering the new level.

Save the list, then save your work as 'Older.esp'.

On the Data Files screen, deselect (uncheck) 'older.esp' and load the master files again so we can create a second test .esp.

Open up the "ex_shore_all_lev+0" list again, and make the following changes:

1. Set 'chance of none' to 0.

2. Add the following creatures, all set to show up at level 1: 'ancestor ghost', 'rat', 'scrib'.

Now save the list, and save this mod as 'Newer.esp'.

Leave the Construction Set for the moment, and use Ghostwheel's TESTool to merge the two lists. Use 'manage active plugins' to select just 'Older.esp' and 'Newer.esp. ('Older' should be listed above 'Newer', so it gets loaded and processed first.)

Once the lists are merged, go back to the Construction Set. On the Data Files screen, select just the new "Merged_Leveled_Lists.esp" file, created by TESTool, and the masters; load normally.


Open up the "ex_shore_all_lev+0" list and look at the entries: you'll discover that the changes made in 'Older.esp' (the level 1 alit and level 18 golden saint) are in their correct places in the list, but the changes made in 'Newer.esp' (the level 1 ancestor ghost, rat, and scrib) are all listed at the bottom of the list, after the golden saint entry.

And that's exactly the way they'll show up in the game: those low level creatures at the bottom of the list won't appear until your character is level 18 or higher.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

To see this in the game, you'll need one test character under level 18, in the Seyda Neen area, and one level 18 or above.

Run the game launcher. On the Data Files screen, select 'Older.esp', 'Newer.esp', and 'Merged_Leveled_Lists.esp', then run the game.

With a character below level 18, you can kill the creatures spawning by the Seyda Neen lighthouse over and over, but you'll never see the ancestor ghost, rat, or scrib that were added by the 'Newer.esp' mod.

To see those creatures from 'Newer.esp', use a level 18 character to go on a killing spree by the lighthouse: with the higher level character, the rat, ancestor ghose, and scrib will now show up randomly along with all the other creatures on the list.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Miscellaneous testing tips:

1. To check the creatures spawned by a leveled list: kill the current creature, then reload the cell by leaving and coming back. That will trigger the list to spawn a new creature. For the above test, I just ducked in and out of the nearby light house.

2. If you use 'player->SetLevel ##' to change your character's level, remember to save and reload so the level change shows up in the game. (F5 then F9 is easy, if you don't mind overwriting your Quick Save.)

3. One way to have a clean low level test character who's strong enough to be 'setleveled' up for this type of testing is to use a script to boost the character's stats and equipment. A stripped down version of the one I use is listed in this post in the infamous thread.

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tru021
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Reged: 07/03/04
Posts: 5
Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: DinkumThinkum]
      #2967967 - 08/25/04 05:40 PM

DinkumThinkum, good and helpful analysis there and I'm glad that I wasn't imagining things. In the end I used TESTool to create the merged lists and then did the hand editing in the CS to force the lists to be correct . Annoying in that if I change my mod list and have to regenerate these lists I have to redo the CS step until my character(s) are sufficient level to avoid the level problem.

Offcourse the good and the bad was that I got attacked by all those lovely creeatures, although being killed by a one legged hopping skeleton (from the undead 2.1 - lovely mod) was a bit embarrasing if amusing.

Tru

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DinkumThinkum
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: tru021]
      #2968033 - 08/25/04 06:24 PM

Quote:


Annoying in that if I change my mod list and have to regenerate these lists I have to redo the CS step until my character(s) are sufficient level to avoid the level problem.





To make it even more annoying: Bloodmoon and Tribunal have some leveled lists with entries from level 30 all the way up to level 60, and some mods add creatures in that level range (and probably higher).

So "sufficient level to avoid the level problem." might be a long long ways away...


Ghostwheel hasn't posted here for over two months, and there hasn't been any response to the PM I sent him a couple of weeks ago, so I have no idea what the chances of an update to TESTool are. Unfortunately, the only contact information I can find for him is to PM here on the forums.

If anybody else does have a way to contact Ghostwheel, could you ask him to at least take a look at this thread?

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Iudas
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: DinkumThinkum]
      #2968217 - 08/25/04 08:34 PM

Do you experience items disappearing from the Merged levelled lists when you hand edit them in TESCS?
Opening up the Merged List shows it is only dependent on the three Bethesda esm., yet its contents come from many other esps and esms.
Trying to open the merged list made by Horatio's tool usually leads to a ctd for me in the editor.

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tru021
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Iudas]
      #2968247 - 08/25/04 08:52 PM

Quote:

Do you experience items disappearing from the Merged levelled lists when you hand edit them in TESCS?





No, because I ensured that all of the required mods were loaded as well and that the merged lists esp was last one loaded. If you do not load all of the mods then you will experience items disappearing because when the CS saves it says hey there's nothing there so it will effectively remove it from the list.

As to the level 60 problem that's nothing I noticed that the creature pack had level 150 creatures in it.

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Iudas
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: tru021]
      #2968268 - 08/25/04 09:05 PM

Thank you,
So a warning is in order.
Do not double click on the MergedLevelledLists.esp to open it in the editor because it only loads the 3 Bethesda esms, not the other esms or any esps.
If you need to hand edit the levelledlists.esp you have to load all the esms and esps that you have active.
This can become problematic for folks running many mods.

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DinkumThinkum
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Iudas]
      #2968273 - 08/25/04 09:07 PM

Quote:


Do you experience items disappearing from the Merged levelled lists when you hand edit them in TESCS?
Opening up the Merged List shows it is only dependent on the three Bethesda esm., yet its contents come from many other esps and esms.
Trying to open the merged list made by Horatio's tool usually leads to a ctd for me in the editor.





Good point!

Anytime you load the Merged list .esp file into the Construction Set or into the game, you also need to load the original .esp and .esm files that the lists were merged from, to make sure all the creatures and items are available.

For somebody who uses several mods that modify a lot of leveled lists, it's probably simpler just to use Horatio's list merger rather than trying to hand edit the lists produced by TESTool.

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Schneeflocke
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: DinkumThinkum]
      #2968413 - 08/25/04 10:51 PM

Is there a problem with Horatio's Merger? I'm asking because it seems logical to me to simply use it instead (if it works) and yet tru021 edited it by hand in the CS.

(Which I don't want to do as I have a couple hundres levelled lists and it would take me ages to do so.)

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Ronin49
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: DinkumThinkum]
      #2968668 - 08/26/04 12:41 AM

Thank you for researching and posting this problem. For those looking for Horatio's tool:

As a minimum, Morrowind Leveled List Merger is available at TheLys [linked] and

also linked here at Gamers' Roam .

It may also be available for download at the Summit and Morrowind Source but neither are accessible to me to check today.



--------------------
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Malhavoc
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: DinkumThinkum]
      #2968849 - 08/26/04 01:45 AM

What if you took the Merged List esp from TEST tool and ran that through Horatio's list merger either alone or with an esp with no leveled lists. would that work to resort the lists while avoiding the 10 items in a crate issue?

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Farvat
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Malhavoc]
      #2968906 - 08/26/04 02:13 AM

This is really a bed news... This bug was discovered too late.... Now if ghostwheel don't come back to solve this problem, we need someone able to make a new program that make list merged.

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Random_Scrib
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Farvat]
      #2968996 - 08/26/04 02:51 AM

Uhhh... doesn't Horatio's List Merger have problems too?

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MeghanAJH
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: DinkumThinkum]
      #2969502 - 08/26/04 06:14 AM

query - do you get different outcomes if you use the 'just fix it' button or with different combinations of options from TESTool for the merge feature?

query - if one were to use a minimum of creature adders - say mw advanced and mephisto's - would it help to load mwa first or creatures first?

Maybe we can generate a prefered load order.

This aside, I still prefer TESTool to Horatio's and have fewer issues over all. Horatio's merge tool has problems as well.

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shiva7663
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: tru021]
      #2969580 - 08/26/04 06:37 AM

Another problem is with merging the checkbox flags associated with leveled lists, resulting, for example, with a scroll merchant selling fifteen of the exact same scroll instead of a decent variety of scrolls.

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Farvat
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Schneeflocke]
      #2969613 - 08/26/04 06:46 AM

Horatio list merger heve problems in the creation of object list generating an incorrect amount of object in crates and barrels (example 10 object of the same type, and an incorrect leveling of the object list)

Ghostwheel creates the Testool to solve these problems, adding many features the transform this program in a "must have" for morrowind. Now it's clear the Testool is bugged in the proces of creation of creatures list.

Now it's a question of taste... i have started a game using horatio for creature list, and all the others features of testool. The game becames different and populated, the creatures now appears properly.

We need a list merger without bugs... this is the fact.

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Iudas
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: MeghanAJH]
      #2969651 - 08/26/04 06:54 AM



Quote:

query - if one were to use a minimum of creature adders - say mw advanced and mephisto's - would it help to load mwa first or creatures first?





It doesn't merge esms correctly. It doesn't merge esps correctly and it doesn't merge both correctly if you have that situation.

MWA creatures are appended to the end of the various levelled lists instead of being shuffled into the list by player level requirement.
Then esps are appended to the end of lists. So you can end up with appended creatures from esps never appearing until the top level creature in a non-Bethesda esm appears; and the creatures in non-bethesda esm's do not appear until the highest level creature in a Bethesda esm has been triggered.
Horatio's merge tool has other issues. The ten items all the same issue and the changing of the settings for levelled lists.

TESTOOL has no options for the merged levelled list function, it has one option for the merged levelled objects function.



Horatio no longer mods. Ghostwheel is incommunicado. Current situation is unpleasant. The solution is to load all your esms and esps into the editor at the same time, setting TESTOOL's levelled lists to be the acitve file. Then go through each levellel item and levelled creature that has an * beside it and follow Dinkum Thinkum's process to force the editor to resort the lists. Then save the file. And hope you are not introducting GMST issues or changing anything else in the file.

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Schneeflocke
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: shiva7663]
      #2969675 - 08/26/04 07:00 AM

Quote:

Another problem is with merging the checkbox flags associated with leveled lists, resulting, for example, with a scroll merchant selling fifteen of the exact same scroll instead of a decent variety of scrolls.




Could you explain that a little more (with an example?), I don't get it. And which merger are you talking about here?


Does Horatios Merger sort existing lists? Because if it does, couldn't we simply use TEStool first and then "merge" the produced file using Horatio's tool? I think someone already asked this in this thread but I don't find it right now and he didn't get an answer yet.
I'm afraid I don't understand the merged lists principles enough to answer that myself (or test it).

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DinkumThinkum
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: MeghanAJH]
      #2970049 - 08/26/04 08:32 AM

Quote:


This aside, I still prefer TESTool to Horatio's and have fewer issues over all. Horatio's merge tool has problems as well.





I know about the problems already mentioned in this thread (and in the TESTool readme) with the 'Calculate for each item in count' setting for leveled item lists. I've also noticed a problem with the 'Calculate from all levels <= PC's level' checkbox for leveled item lists.

What other confirmed and reproducible problems have been identified for Horatio's merger utility?

Based on what I've seen so far in my testing, it looks to me at though the problems with Horatio's merged lists can be fixed (by hand editing in the Construction Set) a lot more easily than the problems with Ghostwheel's merged lists.

But I am still testing, so that's just a preliminary observation.

If you (or anybody) know of confirmed, reproducible problems with Horatio's list beyond the checkboxes for the leveled item lists, please post back here with details.

In particular: are there any known problems with Horatio's utility and creature lists, or is it just the item lists that Horatio's merger doesn't handle properly?

Quote:


query - do you get different outcomes if you use the 'just fix it' button or with different combinations of options from TESTool for the merge feature?





My original intentions were just to verify the problem reported by tru021 and to put together a clear enough bug report so Ghostwheel might be able to fix the problem. I'm not planning on doing a full-scale test of all of TESTool's features and options, especially since I don't use most of them (list merger and conflict report are the only ones I need).

At the moment I'm hoping that either Ghostwheel will reappear on his own or that somebody in the forums knows how to contact him and can point him to this thread.

Quote:


query - if one were to use a minimum of creature adders - say mw advanced and mephisto's - would it help to load mwa first or creatures first?

Maybe we can generate a prefered load order.





Preferred load order to try to avoid problems with TESTool's list merger:

1. Only load two mods with leveled lists.

2. The first mod loaded should have only very low level creatures and items.

3. The second mod loaded should have only very high level creatures and items.

That might avoid most of the problems, but no promises.

If you're loading more than two mods or you can't divide your mods up into one with low level additions and one with high level additions, you can expect to have problems.

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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Farvat]
      #2970095 - 08/26/04 08:47 AM

Farvat ---->
Quote:

We need a list merger without bugs... this is the fact.


I and probably a good few other folk are with you on that.

My question is, and you also having seen the rest of this post, can you confirm that this did work . . .
Quote:

I have started a game using Horatio for creature list and all the others features of TESTool. The game becomes different and populated, the creatures now appear properly.


. . . in your opinion, and can you specifically address creatures and crates, please? Thanks.



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EarthquakeDamage
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Ronin49]
      #2970239 - 08/26/04 09:29 AM

I'm surprised Horatio never fixed the checkbox problem and Ghostwheel never noticed and/or fixed the level number problem. You'd think those are issues they would've made certain to check while developing their list mergers.

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Gravy
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: tru021]
      #2970909 - 08/26/04 01:13 PM

Thanks tru021 for bringing this to our attention and dinkumthinkum for the ongoing analysys. Can't believe I didn't notice this before but I guess my latest character was already level 20 or so when I started using Testool. To answer some simple earlier questions, running testool's list through the Horatio's merger unfortunately doesn't correct anything. If you start with a file that alters many creature lists, MWA for instance, and merge Testool's list with that (even if it contains MWA already) using the H's merger, any lists initially used by MWA will be corrected. Not quite a solution unfortunately.

This will be interesting to fix without access to the either authors' source codes. Need a small add-on utility to resequence Testool's output.

- Gravy

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MeghanAJH
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: DinkumThinkum]
      #2971147 - 08/26/04 02:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

This aside, I still prefer TESTool to Horatio's and have fewer issues over all. Horatio's merge tool has problems as well.



I know about the problems already mentioned in this thread (and in the TESTool readme) with the 'Calculate for each item in count' setting for leveled item lists. I've also noticed a problem with the 'Calculate from all levels <= PC's level' checkbox for leveled item lists.

What other confirmed and reproducible problems have been identified for Horatio's merger utility?




thanks for your various replies, DinkumThinkum. It's given me some stuff to think about as I'm setting up a new game here.

I don't have anything confirmed for you. What I have is my own experience of aggressively swapping mods and playing the game.

Using Horatio's merge tools resulted in, what were to me, annoying and frustrating items drops. Additionally, it was much more difficult to hand merge object lists using the plugin conflict detector. It used to take me, literally, weeks to build a mod list. I also found changing things significantly more likely to break the save than I did with the TESTool.

Using TESTool provided both a faster and more flexible - and, significantly, to me - less problematic experience. In my last game I swapped mods - big, scriptheavy mods like the herbalism stuff - almost every day. I was reckless in adding and removing stuff (and meticulous about cleaning my saves.) The TESTool kept that game going for months. I could never have swapped things around as easily or as quickly with the old tools.

The item drops in TESTool felt right in the game, the dialog merge worked great for me, the object merge worked especially well on the merchants. And again - it only took me a few minutes to do all that as opposed to the hours and hours I'd spend with the old tools.

As for the creatures - looking back I can say, yeah, things probably were appearing later in the game than they ought to have been. But I play with a lot of mods and settings to make the game more difficult so the creatures were appearing about when I could fight them - and they did appear.

None of this is scientific. It's just my experience and, famously, "anecdote is not the plural of data."

But in my experience, the old tools produced an annoying error and were a pain in the neck to use. The TESTool is swift and simple to use and the errors it produced didn't affect my enjoyment of the game. For me, no contest really. Until we get a tool with no flaws I wouldn't hesitate to recommend TESTool - with appropiate caveats.

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MeghanAJH
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: DinkumThinkum]
      #2971156 - 08/26/04 02:46 PM

Quote:

It merged the esm creature files (Giants Ultimate, Morrowind Comes Alive 2.1 and Morrowind Advanced 1.82) fine in that these had entries ascending order according to the player level. However, the esps (Morrowind Comes Alive 2.1 Wilderness, The Undead, Createure Pack 1.1 and Primal) it added after the esm portion of the list.




oh I had another question. It sounds like esms are working ok - what if the Creature pack and the Undead and other esp's from this example were converted into esm files. Would that be a quick workaround?

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tru021
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: MeghanAJH]
      #2971497 - 08/26/04 05:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:

It merged the esm creature files (Giants Ultimate, Morrowind Comes Alive 2.1 and Morrowind Advanced 1.82) fine in that these had entries ascending order according to the player level. However, the esps (Morrowind Comes Alive 2.1 Wilderness, The Undead, Createure Pack 1.1 and Primal) it added after the esm portion of the list.




oh I had another question. It sounds like esms are working ok - what if the Creature pack and the Undead and other esp's from this example were converted into esm files. Would that be a quick workaround?





Unfortunately that was a fluke and was only correct due to the order of the esms during processing, and the next time I had MWA first and then giants the the lists again contained lower level creatures below some high ones.

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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: tru021]
      #2971631 - 08/26/04 07:36 PM

Humm... and what about merge all the creature mods in a big esm file then run TESTool. It could be a partial solution, althought with obvious problems.

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SoNico717
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Neldor]
      #2971650 - 08/26/04 07:59 PM

Wow this problem explain a lot of things... i thought that the problem appear because i was playing with to many mods that modifies the existing creatures levelled list.

Now this is really bad news... i hope someone could find a solution.

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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: SoNico717]
      #2971665 - 08/26/04 08:07 PM

I hate spam, but i think that we need to keep this threat on the top.

This is a serious matter.

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SpandexofDoom
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: SoNico717]
      #2971883 - 08/26/04 10:16 PM

Agreed. Does anyone know if this error could have a similar effect on TESTools other merging functions?

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Ronin49
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: SpandexofDoom]
      #2971899 - 08/26/04 10:27 PM

Various people experienced with mods have previously reported problems with merging dialogue with TESTool. I do not know for certain whether this has been tested or not but I believe these findings were anecdotal, based on experience with mods they know well.





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Iudas
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: SpandexofDoom]
      #2971927 - 08/26/04 10:43 PM

The merge object function appears to work properly, but the resultant merged object will depend on the esp load order when there are two conflicting components in two different esps. And of course nothing yet works for merging scripts automatically.
I have seen seen dialogues that should have been highlighted not be highlighted after a dialogue merge but am not sure that the merge was the cause. There is a thread in the editor forum about the issue of placing new dialogue at the very beginning or the very end of the dialogue tree. In general, modders should not place their new dialogues at the top or the bottom of the topic if they are inserting new content into existing topics.

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freestonew
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Ronin49]
      #2971964 - 08/26/04 11:02 PM

Quote:

Various people experienced with mods have previously reported problems with merging dialogue with TESTool. I do not know for certain whether this has been tested or not but I believe these findings were anecdotal, based on experience with mods they know well.








I recall, once, with my 240 mods, that when i began to use Testool, i used the "merge dialogue" and i got a terrible surprise in my new game! The census office form-taker told me that he was the keeper of the xxxx sword! then when i went outdoors into the yard of sedya, ALL the npcs had that same line, and there were other issues too with ruined dialogues.

there was a dim memory, on my part, about an ancient thread where someone wrote..."testool does not merge dialogue conflicts well! do NOT use this tool to merge dialogues for large, off Vandervall, mods! only use this tool to merge vgreetings...pc voice...and maybe a few "local" mods!

I took his advice. that error of messed-up npc dialgues stopped.

i think that testool is good, but when one uses 200+ mods...ooooh BOY!

currently I have about 175 mods, including about 15 Combined mods, so that i have maybe 250 mods in all. I used the dialogue merge for only vgreetings and pc voice. i merged the items and the leveled lists. i can LIVE with monsters appearing at a later level as i have SO many monster mods!
mw advanced.... [revamped]
creatures of morrrowind.
...and yet more. i took out giants ultimate as my fps is on the borderline.

It would be MORE than a pain for me to go into the CS to handfix about 20 creature/item adding mods! I can live with this: good, no 6 of something until i am at a higher level, as my Motto is..."tourist with sword"!

freestone

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ed_conn
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: freestonew]
      #2972021 - 08/26/04 11:41 PM

The first time I used the TES Tool I loaded up about 30 mods or so and merged the objects and dialog to test it. I printed a completed list of everything the tool merged and checked them one by one. I found no problems. It merged the dialog perfectly, grabbing the changes from each mod without altering the rest. I was impressed impressed that it was able to merge conditions into dialog that the unofficial patch had changed without losing the changes or the new conditions. But again I only had 30 or so mods.

The level list merger I did not test that completely. I just assumed it worked. I was using both Giants 2.7.1, a recent esm, and creature pack 1.1, an esp. I did see creatures from both mods.

My question is this - Why is appending the list bad? As I read the help section, in the editor, about levelled creatures - the game scan the list and randomly choses a creature from the list that is closest to the level of the character, without going over.

It cannot work like the dialog, or you would only get the first creature listed. You may get creatures that is a lower level because they are still eligible creatures.

Obviously there is something I am not understanding with this.

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Iudas
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: ed_conn]
      #2972154 - 08/27/04 12:33 AM

My understanding ( subject to change as I get smarter )
Say you are level 6
come to a spawn point
the game engine parses the list until it hits the first creature over your level. This is logical since the game assumes the list is ordered to begin with from lowest level to highest. Save a few cycles.
you get a creature from among those parsed.
so there are creatures on the list it doesn't bother to parse because it assumes that any creatures after the first one over your level are all over your level. In an ordered list this is a decent assumption.
Add MWA which adds creatures to a levelled list that appear ata PC level 4
but those creatures are appended to the list instead of being slotted into the list in order.
assume the highest level original creature on the original list was level 20
you will have to be level 21 before the level 4 creatures from MWA appear at the spawn point.
MWA is an esm.
if you have an esp that mods the same spawn point as MWA, then the lower level creatures it introduces will not appear until your character has passed the highest level creature MWA put into that spawn point.
If the esp adds level 1 creatures and the highest MWA creature is level 50, you don't see the esp level 1 creatures until you are level 51.

I suspect the same holds true for levelled items but have not checked that yet.

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Vencha
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: ed_conn]
      #2972155 - 08/27/04 12:33 AM

So... from what I understand, Horatio's merges creatures properly, and TESTool merges items properly....

If that is the case, shouldn't we find a way to take the advantages of each merger and put them together somehow?

But, then again, I am not even sure if I fully understand what is going on...

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Schneeflocke
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Iudas]
      #2972167 - 08/27/04 12:43 AM

I'd like to throw in that I am pretty sure that the object merger works correctly (went through all entries and checked them) and I didn't have any problems with the dialog merger either (currently about 220 mods). Of course I'll never know for sure about the dialog but I didn't notice anything weird when talking to a lot of randomly chosen NPCs.

Just so people don't start to panic completely about TEStool. There might be problems but the only one we know for sure right now is the list merging bug.



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Iudas
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Schneeflocke]
      #2972218 - 08/27/04 01:18 AM

agreed.
I have heard and read anecdotes regarding flaws in the dialogue merger but have not encountered any personally.
Item merger seems to work properly within the confines of what he programmed it to do.

Levelled creatures and levelled items are the issue at hand.

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Azdul2
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: tru021]
      #2972252 - 08/27/04 01:37 AM

Did Ghostwheel provided source code for TES Tool ?

I can't find it on his webpage.

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ed_conn
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Iudas]
      #2972260 - 08/27/04 01:40 AM

I feel I don't know enough to agree or disagree. It seems to me that the developers would note that the list stops reading when it hits an invalid response. The did note it for the dialog - stops at first valid response. But dialog is in a seperate database and obviously handled differently. I do not recall reading anywhere, that the list stops.

It should be easy enough to verify. Make a test list. Remove everything for level 5 and below. At the end of the list place a creature for level 1. Make a zero percent chance that nothing shows up. And see what happens.

DinkumThinkum - may have already done this. His explaination was very detail, but I do not have the editor in front of me. Without being able to see what he was talking about, he lost me somewhere.

ed_conn

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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Iudas]
      #2972292 - 08/27/04 01:56 AM

Interesting situation. One thing to note about MWA is that Wormgod also created a bunch of custom leveled lists (these have "mwa" in the name) and spawn points for the mod. Since those particular lists and spawn points are only used by MWA they would presumably be unaffected by this bug. However, MWA does also make modifications to the default lists as well, so it sounds like that is where the described merge problem might occur. Just mentioning this since it's possible you'd still see the lower level MWA creatures even if you encountered the TESTool merge issue, since some are going to be generated from those custom lists.

I personally haven't noticed a problem myself, but then again I tend to do a lot of manual merging of mods and probably don't use as many different creature addons as some.

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Iudas
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: ed_conn]
      #2972457 - 08/27/04 02:52 AM

When you make a list in the editor, the editor sorts the list with each change. When you are done with the changes the list is sorted lowest to highest. So using your example, the list would resort in the editor after you added the level 1 creature and it would still be first on the list when the list is saved.
When testool merges the various lists, the editor is not involved and the lists do not get resorted.


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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Vencha]
      #2972520 - 08/27/04 03:22 AM

Quote:

So... from what I understand, Horatio's merges creatures properly, and TESTool merges items properly....

If that is the case, shouldn't we find a way to take the advantages of each merger and put them together somehow?

But, then again, I am not even sure if I fully understand what is going on...



TESTool kills NPCs from time to time. The Object Merge of two innocent plugins (Illuminated Order and Less Generic NPCs: Khuul) zeroes out the attributes, health, and skills of Miron Garer, which means that he dies instantly when you enter his shack. Neither plugin makes such a drastic change, it's the result of the Merge Objects feature of TESTool.

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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: ed_conn]
      #2972747 - 08/27/04 04:26 AM

Quote:


I feel I don't know enough to agree or disagree. It seems to me that the developers would note that the list stops reading when it hits an invalid response. The did note it for the dialog - stops at first valid response. But dialog is in a seperate database and obviously handled differently. I do not recall reading anywhere, that the list stops.





Why would they mention this? The game is designed to work with leveled lists produced by the Construction Set. Why should they need to say "The game won't work right if you use improperly formatted lists produced by a third party utility"?

This is not the same situation as dialogue: the Construction Set is designed so that dialogue can be added in any order; that's part of how you control which response is used in any given situation. On the other hand, the Construction Set is not designed to produce unsorted leveled lists: it automatically sorts entries to their correct position based on their level.


Quote:


It should be easy enough to verify. Make a test list. Remove everything for level 5 and below. At the end of the list place a creature for level 1. Make a zero percent chance that nothing shows up. And see what happens.

DinkumThinkum - may have already done this. His explaination was very detail, but I do not have the editor in front of me. Without being able to see what he was talking about, he lost me somewhere.






As I stated in my very first post in this thread, I have verified this: "I did some testing with the list merger function in TESTool, and I can definitely confirm that there's a real problem with it." I wouldn't have made that firm a statement if I hadn't already verified this.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's an excerpt from the PM I sent to Ghostwheel a couple of weeks ago, with one of my original tests; it's a simpler (and less realistic) example than the one I posted earlier in this thread:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are some simple lists I tested with:

In the mod being loaded earliest (i.e., listed higher on the Data Files list for the game or the editor), the only entry was:

4 Scrib

In the mod being loaded last (lower on the Data Files list), the only entry was:

1 Rat


When I merged those two lists with TESTool, I wound up with the following list:

4 Scrib
1 Rat

Which is backwards: the Rat should have been at the beginning of the merged list, but instead it was just appended after the last entry in the previously loaded mod.


When I tested this in the game, I did not see any creature from the list at level 1, even though the Rat should have shown up. Once I raised my character's level to level 4, then I started getting the Scrib or the Rat at random, each time I reloaded. I also tested the original (unmerged) lists by themselves, and they worked as expected: the Rat showed up every time for a level 1 character, the Scrib showed up every time once my character was level 4.

From my testing, the game apparently doesn't read and merge the entire list itself. Judging by what I saw, Morrowind just reads entries from the beginning of the list until it finds an entry with a higher level than the character's level (or reaches the end of the list). So the list entries have to be placed in the correct order by level, otherwise lower level entries may not be used for low level characters.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

For a more realistic example, see this post (earlier in this thread).

The section starting with "To see this in the game" describes the ingame effects of the bug: first level creatures added by one mod won't show up until the player character is level 18.

As I stated before in this thread: depending on what mods you're using, you can easily wind up with low level creatures from a mod not showing up for characters below level 20, 40, or even higher. Pretty much ruins the mods if you're not playing a very high level character.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've posted my test results, explained that it I have confirmed that this bug does cause problems in the game, and even given examples. As you said, it's 'easy enough to verify'. If you don't trust my results, why not just test it yourself?

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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Iudas]
      #2972910 - 08/27/04 05:07 AM

Quote:


My understanding ( subject to change as I get smarter )
Say you are level 6
come to a spawn point
the game engine parses the list until it hits the first creature over your level. This is logical since the game assumes the list is ordered to begin with from lowest level to highest. Save a few cycles.
you get a creature from among those parsed.
so there are creatures on the list it doesn't bother to parse because it assumes that any creatures after the first one over your level are all over your level. In an ordered list this is a decent assumption.





That's about what I've concluded based on my investigations: the game was designed to work with the lists produced by the Construction Set, which are correctly sorted. So there wouldn't have been any point in adding the extra code needed to process unsorted lists.

Obviously I don't have access to the source code for Morrowind, but that does explain the results I've seen when a mis-sorted list is used in the game.

Quote:


I suspect the same holds true for levelled items but have not checked that yet.





I haven't tested merged leveled item lists in the game yet, but I have tested them in the Construction Set: they're appended exactly the same as the creature lists are. So I also suspect that leveled items will have the same in-game problems as leveled creatures.

I might check this if I ever find a round tuit. As I've said, my original goal was just to verify the problem and PM Ghostwheel enough information about the bug so he could take a look at it; never planned on this turning into a major project!

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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: DinkumThinkum]
      #2972921 - 08/27/04 05:10 AM

My apologies for understanding this.

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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Vencha]
      #2972931 - 08/27/04 05:13 AM

Quote:


So... from what I understand, Horatio's merges creatures properly, and TESTool merges items properly....





I haven't tested item lists in the game yet, but looking at them in the Construction Set TESTool does NOT merge them properly either: the lists are appended, not merged, just like the creature lists are.

It's possible that the developers coded the game so it can deal with unsorted item lists, but to me that seems pretty unlikely.

If I get a chance, I may try testing item lists in the game to verify this one way or another.

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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: shiva7663]
      #2972940 - 08/27/04 05:17 AM

Quote:


TESTool kills NPCs from time to time. The Object Merge of two innocent plugins (Illuminated Order and Less Generic NPCs: Khuul) zeroes out the attributes, health, and skills of Miron Garer, which means that he dies instantly when you enter his shack. Neither plugin makes such a drastic change, it's the result of the Merge Objects feature of TESTool.





I think that's the problem discussed in this thread; just pasting the link in here in case Ghostwheel shows up...

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DinkumThinkum
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: ed_conn]
      #2972945 - 08/27/04 05:20 AM

Quote:


My apologies for understanding this.





My apologies if my reply was harsh. What started out as a simple bug report wound up getting a bit more involved than I expected...

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ed_conn
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: DinkumThinkum]
      #2973059 - 08/27/04 08:05 AM

It happens. I am a little wound up over work activities, and not in the best frame of mind myself. I was just trying to get clear in my head what the problem was.

I am having difficulty understanding this, because I did not experience this problem. I ran two creature mods. Creature pack and giants. One esp and one esm, I know I saw creatures from both. As a result I probably assumed some things that were not true.

In addition to this, part of what is written does not make sense. Please understand I am not questioning anyone's tests. If everything gets appended, then wouldn't there be no creatures except game standard creatures until the player was above the maximum level the game itself accounts for? If the esm's are being appended and then the esp's being appended after that, the game lists should be first. If the game stops reading after it hits first level over the character, then nothing should show up, until after the player is over the max game level listed.

In the end, I should just load this up and have a look. I am a little weak in understanding this part. I do not mess with the game levelledlists in my mods. If I need a levelled list for something, I create a new one. I would play around with, but I am revising Korobal, and want to do that in a clean game environment - Nothing but the game and Korobal installed.

The topic caught my attention, because I use the TES Tool quite a bit.

ed_conn

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Abelmir
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: shiva7663]
      #2973149 - 08/27/04 08:38 AM

I just want to let you know that the Miron Garer problem doesn't seem to effect everyone. I have both LGNPCKhuul and Illuminated Order installed together with many other mods and I used the TESTool to merge all objects. Since I read about the reported serious problems, I started a new game to test if I could reproduce them. I entered Miron Garer's hut and everything was in order: He stayed alive. Perhaps it's a problem with the mod load order: In my game Khuul loads earlier than IO.

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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: ed_conn]
      #2973201 - 08/27/04 08:58 AM

Quote:


It happens. I am a little wound up over work activities, and not in the best frame of mind myself. I was just trying to get clear in my head what the problem was.





Basically, I had just been waiting for Ghostwheel to PM me back with 'Thanks for the bug report. I'll look into it.' or something. After two weeks of no response I posted here, and this thread is chewing up a lot more of my time than I originally expected. But I shouldn't have taken it out on you!

Quote:


I am having difficulty understanding this, because I did not experience this problem. I ran two creature mods. Creature pack and giants. One esp and one esm, I know I saw creatures from both. As a result I probably assumed some things that were not true.





How much affect the bug has on creatures showing up in the game depends on the particular mods, what order they're loaded in, and your character's level. So some people may not see the bug at all, especially with a higher level character, but it may be very obvious to others, especially those playing a low level character.

For you and anybody else who's not seeing the bug: if you know how to work with the Construction Set, try the example I posted earlier in the thread.

It should just take a few minutes to create the two .esp files and merge them; looking at the merged list in the Construction Set should make the problem very obvious. If the other reports in this thread aren't enough to confirm that this problem also affects the game, a little more time testing my example in the game should kill any doubt that this is a real problem.

Quote:


In addition to this, part of what is written does not make sense. Please understand I am not questioning anyone's tests. If everything gets appended, then wouldn't there be no creatures except game standard creatures until the player was above the maximum level the game itself accounts for? If the esm's are being appended and then the esp's being appended after that, the game lists should be first. If the game stops reading after it hits first level over the character, then nothing should show up, until after the player is over the max game level listed.





OK! Now I see where you're getting stuck.

The list merger utilities don't process the lists in the original master files (Morrowind.esm, Tribunal.esm, Bloodmoon.esm). They just merge the lists in .esm and .esp plugins.

The logic: when a modder edits a leveled list, he wants his new list to replace the original list that comes with the game. The purpose of the list merger utilities is to just sort things out when more than one mod changes the same leveled list.

What happens with TESTool:

The first time it encounters a particular leveled list will be in the first mod processed (in load order). That first version of the list will be copied unchanged.

When TESTool finds another mod with a version of a list it's already processed once, it just looks for changes: new entries that aren't in the copy it's created so far.

And then the bug appears: instead of merging the new entries at their correct positions in the list copy, it just appends them after the other entries.

If it's still not too clear, try doing my example and looking at the merged copy of the list in the Construction Set; that might help this make more sense.

Quote:

In the end, I should just load this up and have a look. I am a little weak in understanding this part. I do not mess with the game levelledlists in my mods. If I need a levelled list for something, I create a new one. I would play around with, but I am revising Korobal, and want to do that in a clean game environment - Nothing but the game and Korobal installed.





What I do to test things like this is to use a separate Morrowind installation; most of the testing for this is being done in my 'test' Morrowind install, which I use for testing things without mucking up other installs that I use for playing or working on various projects.

Setting up multiple installs is fairly easy, as long as you have enough disk space for the installations, and it can really help keep things sorted out when you're modding.

Multiple installs are also handy for people who want different sets of mods for different characters: two friends or family members who both play Morrowind on the same computer.

See this post for tips on setting up multiple installations of Morrowind on one computer.

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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: DinkumThinkum]
      #2973228 - 08/27/04 09:06 AM

To clear up about TESTool and levelled item lists:

Quote:


Quote:


So... from what I understand, Horatio's merges creatures properly, and TESTool merges items properly....





I haven't tested item lists in the game yet, but looking at them in the Construction Set TESTool does NOT merge them properly either: the lists are appended, not merged, just like the creature lists are.

It's possible that the developers coded the game so it can deal with unsorted item lists, but to me that seems pretty unlikely.

If I get a chance, I may try testing item lists in the game to verify this one way or another.





I went ahead and tested in the game, and TESTool breaks leveled item lists the same way it breaks leveled creature lists: it appends items rather than merging them.

So if two mods both add loot or other items to leveled lists, some of the low level loot may not show up until the player's character is fairly high level.

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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: DinkumThinkum]
      #2973274 - 08/27/04 09:21 AM

so if I use horatio's leveled list merger do I get any problems then?

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DinkumThinkum
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Sangdraxe]
      #2973317 - 08/27/04 09:37 AM

Quote:


so if I use horatio's leveled list merger do I get any problems then?





The short version:

The list merger in TESTool fouls up item and creature lists. How much it affects the game depends on the mods involved, what order they're loaded in, and your character's level.

Horatio's list merger appears to be fine for creature lists, but has problems with item lists. The problems show up mostly when multiple copies of the same list are used in a merchant's inventory or in a container: all the lists will generate the same item, rather than a random selection.

Most of my testing has been of TESTool. The item list problem with Horatio's utility is the only one that seems to be well-known; I haven't really checked for others.

The long version: read the thread!

Hint: do a text search on 'Horatio' to quickly find the places his list merger utility is discussed (the Windows standard 'Ctrl-F' works in Internet Explorer; don't know about other browsers).

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null_pointer
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Sangdraxe]
      #2973320 - 08/27/04 09:38 AM

Okay, I've been following this thread for a while, as it confirms what I've had a sneaking suspicion for a while about: levelled lists seem to be broken as certain monsters and loot is not showing up/showing up at odd times.

What we need now are instructions from the more knowledgeable modders on how to manually resort the lists so that they are correct. Regardless of how tedious it may be, could someone please do a step-by-step on how to manually parse and organize a list in the Construction Kit? I think that, until we get a tool which we know to work, many of us would like to be able to know (not hope) that our levelled lists are correct. Yes?

Thanks in advance. Some great, intelligent discussion going on, here. Keep it up!

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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: null_pointer]
      #2973371 - 08/27/04 09:54 AM

There is a long tedious way using the CS, but you probably don't want to do it, I'll let Dinkum explain

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Iudas
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: null_pointer]
      #2973668 - 08/27/04 11:24 AM

Open the editor,
Add all the esms and esps you are using in your game.
Make the TESTOOL Merged Levelled List your active esp.
Go to the objects window; select the levelled items lists section.
For every item in the levelled lists with an * beside its number of occurrences, slowly left click on the level value for the first item in the list. if the value is 1 type in a 1, if a 3 type in a 3. Select OK.
That list will resort.
Rinse and repeat for all the other levelled items.
Go to the levelled creatures lists in the object window.
Do the same thing for each * marked levelled creature.
Click on the level for the first item in the list if it is a 1 type 1 if it is a 3 type 3 etc. Click OK.
Rinse and repeat for all levelled creatures lists
save
Do nots:
Do not change anything else in the editor.
Do not forget to load ALL the files you are using in game.
If you leave a file out that has a levelled list, then the items it adds to the list will not be found by the editor and will be DELETED from the list when it is sorted.
DO NOT FORGET TO MAKE THE LEVELLED LIST ESP YOUR ACTIVE ESP
As an example, with 185 mods loaded, Testool's levelled lists mod has 400+ changed levelled lists. Lots of room to make finger farts doing the correction process.

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Malhavoc
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Iudas]
      #2973743 - 08/27/04 11:46 AM

I have never been able to load my levelled list esp into the construction set. It always crashes presumably because I am running too many mods (and have them all checked).

I think it's possible to use the Morrowind Enchanted Editor to cut and paste levelled list entries into the correct order and then save the revised work. This avoids using the construction set for those who are experiences CTD when running lots of mods.

Of course, since I have over 500 levelled lists hand editing is a daunting task. Unfortunately, I can confirm that using Horatios list merger to merge the TESTool list esp does *not* correct the problem. I merged the TESTool list esp with itself using Horatio's merger and levelled creatures where still appended. Apparently Horatio's merger only resorts the list when a *new* entry is added. Makes sense but doesn't help cure the TESTool problem.

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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Iudas]
      #2973744 - 08/27/04 11:46 AM

Iudas: Thank you! My brain is a little too fried on this topic right now to type in a tutorial like that.

And a truckload of rotten apples to Gravy for volunteering me...

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Iudas
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: DinkumThinkum]
      #2973802 - 08/27/04 11:59 AM

You're welcome.
This is actually a rather serious issue, not so much ( in my mind ) because the player sees some creatures out of rational order, but because items that should show up at a rational time to make mods function as the modder desired the mod to function are showing up late or not at all.


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DinkumThinkum
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Gravy]
      #2973842 - 08/27/04 12:12 PM

Quote:


This will be interesting to fix without access to the either authors' source codes. Need a small add-on utility to resequence Testool's output.





At the moment, that sounds like the most practical solution: a utility to just resort the lists in the "Merged_Leveled_Lists.esp" produced by the TESTool list merger function should be a lot easier to write than a complete new list merger utility.

(Don't even think about volunteering me: as a programmer, I was never more than a dabbler, and most of the little programming I've done wasn't in any languages that are in use today.)

In fact, if Ghostwheel does resurface, adding some code to sort the lists after they're created might be simpler than rewriting the list merger code.

From what I've seen of the item list problem in Horatio's utility, there's no way an add-on utility could correct the problem. The checkboxes are simply cleared, regardless of their original settings; no way to recover the original settings without reprocessing the original lists. (Haven't really tested that, but that's what appeared to be happening in my one quick check.)

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DinkumThinkum
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Iudas]
      #2973921 - 08/27/04 12:40 PM

Quote:


You're welcome.
This is actually a rather serious issue, not so much ( in my mind ) because the player sees some creatures out of rational order, but because items that should show up at a rational time to make mods function as the modder desired the mod to function are showing up late or not at all.





This is the sort of problem I've been visualizing:

A mod adds a new low level creature to some leveled lists, and the player gets a quest at third level to kill three of them and bring back their hearts.

But, thanks to the list merger bug, the player will have to wait until he's level fifty before the first creature shows up in the game.

Kind of wrecks the whole point of installing the mod...

I can think of tons of similar scenarios.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

At the moment, I'm just working on miscellaneous projects and not really playing the game. Once I get back to playing the game seriously, I'll probably do something like this:

Run the mods through the list merger in TESTool, and look at the log to see just how many lists were actually merged.

A. If it's not too high a number to handle, I'll go ahead and just resort all the lists in the Construction Set.


B. If it's more lists than I feel like resorting, I'll use Horatio's list merger, then go through just the item lists that were merged and put a check mark in all the "Calculate for each item in count" boxes. That won't be a perfect match to how the lists should be, but it should make the lists work quite well enough for all practical purposes (and it should be faster just checking boxes on item lists than reentering levels for all the lists).

(Or if it's only a few item lists, I could just open up two instances of the Construction Set, so I can see the original lists and the merged lists together, and set the item lists from Horatio's merger utility to match the original versions of the lists.)

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null_pointer
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Iudas]
      #2974130 - 08/27/04 01:41 PM

EDIT #3: Okay, after basically playing with the TESCS for an hour or so, I understand what's going down. I've deleted my previous dumb questions and observations. Here's my point:

The incidence rate of mis-sorted lists are VERY VERY small. The problem is that the mis-sorts happen on the largest of the lists, where they are most likely to be noticed. Right now I'm just slogging through the lists, but I really wish I was bright enough to figure out an automated solution. Good luck to those who choose to tackle it; I gladly volunteer my services as tester. (salute!)

EDIT 4: Did I say that the incidence rate was low?? Ummm, yeah. So I just started going through the leveled creature lists. Wow. What a mess. Still slogging.

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aerelorn
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: DinkumThinkum]
      #2974208 - 08/27/04 02:06 PM

Quote:

At the moment, that sounds like the most practical solution: a utility to just resort the lists in the "Merged_Leveled_Lists.esp" produced by the TESTool list merger function should be a lot easier to write than a complete new list merger utility.




I'm working on a re-sequencer. Shouldn't take long, but I'll need some volunteers to help me test it when it's finished. Anyone interested in testing it and then loading the merged .esp to check that the lists were resequenced should PM me.

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Vencha
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: aerelorn]
      #2974281 - 08/27/04 02:30 PM

I was just about to suggest you Aerlorn!!! Thank you very much for this

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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Vencha]
      #2974391 - 08/27/04 03:15 PM

Just bumping to keep it up for the night

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ninjagaidan1
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Vencha]
      #2974574 - 08/27/04 04:34 PM

wow its aerelorn. he will save us. i hope!

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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: ninjagaidan1]
      #2974901 - 08/27/04 08:21 PM

Thanks Aerelorn!!!

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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Malhavoc]
      #2974956 - 08/27/04 09:08 PM

If I use a levelled list made by horatio's list leveller, I get an instant CTD when I try to load it in the editor.
I can load Testools Levelled list and not get a CTD, if I load all my mods at once I get a CTD about half way into the load. The editor is a sensitive little beast.

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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: aerelorn]
      #2974963 - 08/27/04 09:12 PM

Most generous of you. I will be glad to "guinea pig" it for you.
Might I suggest that you take a look at Horatio's list leveller which has different inefficiencies than the TesTool leveller function, between the two methods might lie an answer to the issue that satisfies all the necessities of merging levelled lists.

Edited by Iudas (08/27/04 09:14 PM)

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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: aerelorn]
      #2975184 - 08/27/04 10:58 PM

Quote:



I'm working on a re-sequencer. Shouldn't take long, but I'll need some volunteers to help me test it when it's finished. Anyone interested in testing it and then loading the merged .esp to check that the lists were resequenced should PM me.






hooooray!

I might think that a simple solution would be that there is a utility that deals with the leveled lists/items list *after* they are created.

I have 200+ mods and the idea of laBORiously going through the cs pains me: i want to Play My game! i have maybe 30 more rpgs that are sitting in my closet unplayed!

anyway, hats off to you Aerelon, if you can fix this!

freestone

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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: DinkumThinkum]
      #2975229 - 08/27/04 11:26 PM

Thank You for the explanation. I understand what you are saying and have is clear in my head. I appreciate your taking the time to clear up my misunderstanding.

For what it is worth, I appreciate the effort you have put in investigating the bug in the first place.

Ed

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Vencha
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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: ed_conn]
      #2975273 - 08/27/04 11:52 PM

Yes, without Drinkum, we wouldn't have got as far as we are now.
Thanks to you too Drinkum_Thinkum!!

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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: Vencha]
      #2975371 - 08/28/04 12:57 AM

Personally, I am very glad that aerelorn has offered to try creating a fix utility for this.

I was hoping that keeping this thread alive would catch the attention of somebody who knew how to get in touch with Ghostwheel, but that doesn't seem to have worked.

So many thanks to aerelorn for jumping in!

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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: DinkumThinkum]
      #2975702 - 08/28/04 03:36 AM

Would be great if you would do this aerelorn. My programming skills are are quite reasonable (IMHO) but specialized in the empedded processor environment. Would be happy to test though. Love tearing apart file formats to see what makes everything tick and have been forced to become too well aquainted with ESM/ESP.
Hopefully Dinkum hasen't gained too many grey hairs over the last few days. If so they are well earned . Thanks for all the thread time.

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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: aerelorn]
      #2975828 - 08/28/04 04:13 AM

I'll help! (uh, provided I understand what you want. )

PM sent.

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Re: TESTool Merged list question - a problem? [Re: MeghanAJH]
      #2989671 - 08/31/04 08:48 AM

For anybody who's missed the other thread, a fix has been released for this problem by aerelorn. Here's a link to the release thread.

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