Ronin49 |
Disciple |
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Reged: 03/08/04 |
Posts: 1723 |
Loc: Canada | |
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Prologue -
This is intended to be a discussion thread where we can amicably
explore some ideas about mod conflicts. I should imagine we will
differ on some of them: I hope so as that provides an opportunity to
learn. To me this is not an issue of modder vs. user. And I think
the views of both mod makers and mod users, the experienced and
novice of both, are relevant to a discussion on this subject. And
finally, a request - please take aimed shots which suggests -
discussing ideas not ancestry ,
reading the whole thread and not just the title or the last post,
and taking the time to make a considered response.
Longish post, hang on . . . .
The subject of mod
conflicts is hardly new. Earlier today, Pseron Wyrd, for whom I have
much respect despite his new avvy ,
wrote this HERE:
Quote:
I don't think you need to be too overly concerned with
landmass conflicts, personally. No matter where you put your
island it is bound to conflict with the landmass placed by some
other mod. And if it doesn't conflict with anything now it is
almost certainly conflict with a landmass placed by some mod in
the future.
It is not the business of a modder to wiry
about this. After all, if we put on a green shirt and a pink pair
of pants do we blame the clash of colors on the two people who
designed the clothes?
I believe players need to take some
responsibility in choosing which mods to run during a game.
Modders ought to be free to concentrate on their craft, to
concentrate on producing the finest work they are capable of at
that moment in their lives and players need to decide if that work
is appropriate for the game they are planning. It is not a
modder's job to think for the player.
I say: if two mods
conflict, don't whine to the modder; play them in different games.
Now, I actually agree with
most of this or the general thrust and, in my view, the sentence -
"I believe players need to take some responsibility in choosing
which mods to run during a game." - is a generous
understatement. I think a player is entirely responsible for
choosing which mods to run and getting and keeping them going.
That said, there were some parts of the quote that gave me
pause. Generally, I think there may be some responsibilities on the
part of both maker and user. Putting it another way, there are some
things that can be done to assist the player in discharging that
responsibility in the most effective and least painful way.
First, to some kids to get off the street:
- No one truly expects anyone else to use only one mod [not TC],
so the issue of compatibility and conflict is always there and
probably should be considered by the mod maker as part of their
design criteria.
- Mods are freeware into which the creator pours their time,
energy and creative juices. They are a gift and that fact is
appreciated.
- It is therefore not a question of what mod makers should,
ought or have to do. They do not. However, that consideration does
not make the issue of what they could usefully do go away.
And craft places its own demands.
- Mods are made for the enjoyment of the maker. Quite a few
people tell us that and, given the work involved, you have to hope
that's true. I believe it. But once you upload a mod, you have
intentionally made it available for the use of others and that
suggests, at least to me, not an obligation but a desire on the
part of the maker that their mod be useful to its potential users.
And that suggests giving some consideration to things like
conflicts.
- You do not have to be a mod maker to know something about mod
conflicts or hard work.
- It is acknowledged that there are apparently some mod users
who seemingly could take greater responsibility for the selection
of mods in their game and for learning how to work the
magic. I suggest though that most mod users do take that
responsibility once they have had a little time to learn the
basics.
- Not everyone has highly developed CS skills and hardly anyone
does at the beginning. 'Just move the building/landmass/NPC/city"
is easy enough to say if you have done it successfully a few
times. Not so easy at first and for some never likely to happen.
- "Examples" are just that; an instance meant to illuminate a
point being made in discussion. They may not be the best example
or the only example nor do they exclude other similar or opposite
instances. They are just examples.
- If a few mods get named as examples to demonstrate a point,
please understand this is not intended as criticism and put away
that Nomex underwear.
Secondly, it is worth pointing out that there are
different kinds of conflicts and, I suggest, differing expectations
for the conflicts presented by different kinds of mods. Try this -
locations for landmasses are relatively limited and pretty full.
Large adventure mods with a landmass, settlements and a coven of
quests are therefore likely to find few locations to set up where
they will not bump into another of their kind, another "big location
mod". It therefore seems perfectly reasonable to me, as they do not
depend on each other, to expect that I could choose between them. I
can always play the other one in a different game or sequentially in
the same game. There are some things that a mod maker can do
that are very helpful, that indicate a very high standard of
craftsmanship and artistry and that are much appreciated. They are:
- An awareness of the location conflict issue and a reasonable
effort to avoid or mitigate its effects. Most large mod makers
seem to do this quite naturally. I have read a few too many
readmes for my taste though that say, "No known conflicts" when
you could bet on the basis of the rough location that it will
conflict and when you load it up, so it does.
- The 'real estate' questions in WIP threads and beta testing
approaches employed by many appear to define these potential
location conflicts early on. It is perhaps worth suggesting the
obvious, that some pre-release tests with as many other mods
loaded as possible are much more informative than a nearly bare
Data Files test drive.
- Some folk precisely indicate the locations modified by their
mod by cell co-ordinates. This is very useful and it is
unfortunate this is not common to all releases and readmes. Others
have a 'big hand, small map' approach - NE of Dagon Fel, NW of
Khuul, SW of Seyda Neen etc - OK but where?
- The most effective approach, in my view, is that employed by
only a few mod makers and that is to supplement co-ordinate
descriptions with a map in a release thread screenshot and a copy
in the download file. If I can compare several of these maps,
regardless of my CS or TES utility expertise I can make a pretty
accurate guesstimate of likely compatibility or conflict before I
load anything.
- Finally, I suggest it is important that large location or
landmass dependent mods are positioned so that they do not
conflict with other mods providing services or facilities and
requiring a modest amount of real estate, the "small location
mods", see below.
There are scripting conflicts as
well and I suggest, that as some mods become more and more script
intensive, there will be more of these. There are script
conflicts or effects that are unavoidable to accomplish the mod's
aim and these must needs be accepted to use the mod. But it seems to
me that they should usually be known to the mod maker and
communicated to the user. An excellent example is Monica's Shield
Rotation mod: it permits shield placement but the existence of
the scripts to do this prevent stacking of shields in Inventory.
This was known and stated up front. Fair enough - the user then has
access to the information on which to make a rational choice about
using the mod. In other cases most mod makers seem to take a
good deal of care to ensure that the scripts they build do not
conflict with other game play. That would seem to be a reasonable
approach, to limit the script effects wherever possible to the
desired outcome and nothing else.
Some dialogue conflicts
also are reported. It seems that the usual response by the maker is
to define the source of the problem and to rectify it, usually very
quickly. This seems to me to be a reasonable approach and one that
we could hope would normally be adopted, with the game dialogue and
that of the older mod having precedence.
There are other
location situations that are not so clear-cut. Quite often these are
conflicts between the locations of NPCs or buildings, sometimes
buildings that are utilized within a larger adventure mod. My
best example is Suran. Fortunately, I did not have House of
Spears loaded but Suran Underworld, Suran Archery
Tradehouse, an essential quest-giver for the Serene Tower
mod and another essential quest-giver for Archemage's Tower
[because of a dialogue/naming conflict between the two Tower mods, I
think] were all trying to operate out of the same building. [This is
intended as illustration, not criticism: the authors of the more
recent mods have gone to considerable lengths to resolve this and
seem well on their way to doing so. Also, Pseron Wyrd has posted
'fix location' mods for both of the two merchant mods.] My point
here is that I do think it is reasonable to hope that mod makers
take particular care not to conflict with existing and reasonably
well known "small location mods", normally service-providing mods -
merchants, fast travel, banks, guild houses and the like, precisely
because these are the mods that you really do not want to play
sequentially like you can quest mods.
Nor are these location
conflicts primarily from "big location mods" conflicting with "small
location mods". The "smalls" seem to conflict with each other quite
often. I know of at least two in Seyda Neen where the placement of
an NPC in a later mod 'broke' the function of an existing mod. In
both cases, the conflicts were eventually resolved by relocating one
of the conflicting mods. There are several measures that mod makers
can take to limit or accommodate these instances of location
conflict:
- The same awareness of real estate issues referred to in
discussing "big location mods" above.
- Similar provision of a screenshot or sketch map in the WIP and
release threads and the download file to provide the mod user with
the information on which to make an informed decision.
- "Get out of Dodge!" Mods that place NPCs in close proximity to
NPCs from other mods can have unfortunate effects upon the
playability of either or both. it is true that Vvardenfell is
really not that large and that there are a now a lot of "small
location mods" that one could hope would 'play nicely together.'
But it seems to me that much of the crowding is self-inflicted.
Who decreed that new underwear or armour had to be available the
instant the adventurer got off the boat or very soon afterward?
When I look at some older mods, this seems to be a fairly recent
phenomenon. Seyda Neen, particularly the Customs and Census Office
and Arrille's, is grossly over-crowded with mods. So is Balmora,
to the point of cliché, and increasingly Suran. An excellent
example of the solution is Canadian Ice's Dagon Fel location for
Metal Queen Boutique , out of the city but connected to
fast travel: any new character can get there safely long before
they have enough money to make the trip worthwhile. This is not
accidental: her house location is also placed so as not to
conflict. Gnisis, Maar Gan, the eastern outskirts of Dagon Fel,
Vos and Molag Mar are all under-utilized. Hopefully, the makers of
'small location mods" will realize this and begin to locate new
mods in those places.
In summary, I think that mod
users are entirely responsible for their mod usage. I also think
that truly skillful mod making delivers the mod into the game world
with a minimum of conflict, especially by "small location mods", and
there are many of these very well tuned mods. I suggest that mod
makers might want to consider locating their new shoppes and traders
somewhere other than Seyda Neen, Balmora and Suran. Morrowind places
many quests suitable for lower level characters along country roads.
It seems odd to me that many mods do not do the same.
More
than two cents worth of words there. What do other people think?
-------------------- "And to everyone seeing naked and
headless people, READ THE README!!! It's the answer to all your
troubles." Neoptolemus
Morrowind Mythic Mods ----> Ronin49's Lists
& Links, Starting Out With Mods, Themed Mod Lists, Telesphoros'
List o'Mods
Edited by Ronin49
(08/15/04 01:30 AM)
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Ivza |
Acolyte |
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Reged: 01/05/03 |
Posts: 156 |
Loc: Finland | |
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Yesterday, as
I was trying to find out what was wrong with Haunted Tombs to cause
conflicts with redwoodtreesprite's mod configuration (eventually, it
turned out there weren't conflicts), my attitude towards
compatibility issues somewhat changed.
Until then, I had
tried my best to keep the mod compatible with as many mods as
possible. No matter how well you try to make a mod, it's always
possible that someone makes a mod that conflicts with it. I related
this case to the time I was programming applets in a company. Did it
work with Netscape? Did it work with IE? Which versions? Which OSs?
OS/2? WinNT? When I got paid for doing that, I did my best to get
the software to work for everyone. Not so with the applets I did on
my freetime.
Now, I only try to make sure my mod doesn't
conflict with other closely related mods - that is, if I were to
make a Guild of Hunters, I'd see (to some extent) that it wouldn't
conflict with some marksman mods, for example. But I wouldn't care a
bit if it conflicted with something quite unrelated, for example
Sixth House, no matter how good that other mod would be even in my
eyes. I also don't see any obligation for me to download mods just
to see if they'd conflict with what I'm making.
Don't
understand this as I'd be actively seeking conflicts - I do follow
the guidelines I read somewhere to keeping mods nonconflicting, I
just won't necessarily do anything about a conflict if there is one.
After all, there's always the possibility of not using my
mods.
I agree with you on quite a few points. I'm not holding
players at gunpoint to download my mods or anything. I've also tried
to utilize places that aren't that much used, although I haven't
left Balmora and Suran completely untouched. I gave the practice of
listing changed cells when my mods begun to use over twenty
different cells. None of them involved landscaping,
though.
Here's to hoping my grumpiness will vanish before
next weekend.
-------------------- My mods
and utils: Icatos; Markov Name Generator; Amulet of Scrye;
Haunted Tombs; Blight Bounties
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Pyrus |
Initiate |
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Reged: 07/27/04 |
Posts: 74 |
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Damn all you
modders for forcing us to make choices!
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DopeHatMan |
Disciple |
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Reged: 06/20/03 |
Posts: 1579 |
Loc: Secret lair of Captain Obvious
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I say modders
are responsible for making their mods compatible with those that
they're aware of in the area, if at all feasible... it also depends
on the scale of the project... there's no way in hell we could make
UA compatible iwth another Tel Uvirith mod that messes with the
interior of the tower, it just won't happen because it's completely
unrealistic to expect it...
the users are also responsible
for deciding what to use and what not to use, even if it means
learning how to use the CS to get them to play nice together... that
was actually my first intro into modding, getting Uvirith Unleashed
and Uvirith Vault to work together.
-------------------- Uvirith Awakened Forums Now with 50% More
Lore! Moderator on the MWS Forums ihatedopehatman@yahoo.com
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I have made
screenshots of the game map and the cs region map of my wip, showing
the cells I'm changing. I do this because it's easier than just
listing cell coordinates and I think people understand a visual
image better than a list of numbers.
That said I'm sure my
mod will conflict with some others. I've avoided those areas of some
other people's wips because I want to play them when they are
released, but massive projects like Tamriel Rebuilt and Silgrad
Tower are probably going to make my mod obsolete when they come out.
I've decided I can live with that.
-------------------- Morrowind Mods by Detritus2004
Mystara's Morrowind Links NIFLA: Home of the .nif importer
and exporter for MilkShape
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brood |
Adept |
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Reged: 02/22/04 |
Posts: 303 |
Loc: Queensland, Australia
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I always check
for conflicts and I urge other modders to do the same!
-------------------- *WIP LIST* `````````` -Tales
Of Mora -Pelagiad Revisited My Site: http://www.broodmodding.tk/
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Matthew13 |
Curate |
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Reged: 06/23/03 |
Posts: 693 |
Loc: Here. | |
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As a mod-maker
I tend to regard part of making a good mod as avoiding conflicts
whenever and wherever possible. For example, I've moved things or
changed names in order to resolve conflicts with Carnithus'
Armamentarium and the Illuminated Order, and the
forthcoming edition of my mod will resolve the conflict with the
Suran Archery Tradehouse.
However, there comes a time
where you have got to say, allright, I've done my best, and this is
the product that I'm going to release. There are simply too many
mods out there to resolve all the conflicts. Ultimately this is a
player responsibility. And if, as a player, you choose to run a
hundred different mods, then it is unrealistic to expect that there
will not be any conflicts. After all, mod makers are not a
coordinated community. Mostly we work alone or in small groups, and
keeping all the mods out there straight is just not going to happen.
Hell, it's been almost a year since I've seriously played Morrowind,
except to test what I'm working on.
So, as a matter of
courtesy and pride, I will try to release stuff that is as conflict
free as I can make it, however, if you are planning on running many
many mods at once then I'm thinking that developing some CS skills
is a must.
-------------------- Matthew
Imagination IS more important than knowledge. . .but
knowledge is a close second.
Creator of Suran Underworld Writer of Random
Thoughts
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Mode_Locrian |
Diviner |
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Reged: 10/07/02 |
Posts: 2032 |
Loc: Bjornholm, Rykith Lowlands Region
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Well... I try
to avoid conflicts by using unique ID naming schemes (a five
character prefix for all IDs in any mod I create e.g. ML_B_ in
Bjornholm and ML_H_ in Herbalism Redux). However, with respect to
landmass locations, I don't worry about it that much. If you're
making a large island like I am, and you want it to be on the
viewable map, it's pretty much guaranteed that it will conflict with
something. Further, if you want it to have some sort of believable
lore consistency, that limits your location options further (e.g.
due the snow on Bjornholm, I couldn't really put it south of
Vvardenfell).
I make a note of landmass conflicts whenever I
discover them so that I can warn people in the readme (as if anyone
ever reads it...) but that doesn't mean I'm about to move my island
or anything. It's my mod, that I'm creating primarily for my own
amusement so, as long as it doesn't conflict with any of my other
mods, I don't have a problem with it.
Unfortunately, this
means that if other people want to use the mod, they may have to
choose between it and others, but that's what multiple saved games
are for. Further, so I don't sound like a total bad guy, I will be
including an esp file that contains all of the weapons, armor,
objects etc that you can acquire in Bjornholm without the landmass
so, once you're done exploring the island, you can clean your save
and use the items esp to retain all the loot that you've collected.
With respect to avoiding conflicts, that's about the best solution I
can come up with.
-------------------- My Website Bards of Vvardenfell Thread (New Info 8/15/04)
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Patrograd2 |
Curate |
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Reged: 02/01/04 |
Posts: 986 |
Loc: England | |
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Well, I
broadly agree with what you're saying. There is much that a modder
can do, without any extra work, to make the mod less likely to
conflict.
As has been said, making objects/scripts etc with
unique IDs and unique prefixes is alot of it, and represents zero
extra work for the modder. To not do this, is to me, just sloppy
modding.
Landmasses are different. As has been said, if the
modder wants it on the main map, then it will conflict. If not, as
in my case, then its also easy enough to make steps to reasonably
avoid conflicts. In fact, i thought it was more important to avoid
conflicts than to be on the map, but thats a personal decision.
Plenty of people have complained about the lack of a world map on my
island (located well to the South of Vvardenfell) but when the
reason is explained theyre (usually) pretty understanding.
-------------------- Patrograd's Annastian Adventures
Mods City of Thieves and DeathTrap Dungeon http://www.geocities.com/patrograd/
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Aratex |
Adept |
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Reged: 03/14/02 |
Posts: 281 |
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Well, since
you said everyone's opinion matters, I'd like to say a few words
from a non-modder's perspective. I have some fairly basic CS
knowledge, but I've yet to create anything new and would be a bit
timid about the idea of fixing any but the smallest of conflicts.
That said, I believe mod conflicts are a shared responsibility, with
the ultimate decision being put in the hands of the player. It is a
kind (and appreciated!) gesture to see modders trying to avoid and
even go out of their way to fix conflicts with other popular mods
and WIPs, but I can more than understand why there will always be
times that those conflicts will exist. There is so much brilliant
material being created and released by so many different parties
that it would be impossible to totally avoid conflicts. Ultimately,
it comes down to a user's decision to either pick and choose or, if
possible, try to resolve conflicts him/her self. However, it is a
very nice gesture to continue to see the authors of the community
working together to avoid and fix conflicts for those of us with
less technical knowledge.
Quote:
Further, so I don't sound like a total bad guy, I will be
including an esp file that contains all of the weapons, armor,
objects etc that you can acquire in Bjornholm without the landmass
so, once you're done exploring the island, you can clean your save
and use the items esp to retain all the loot that you've
collected. With respect to avoiding conflicts, that's about the
best solution I can come up with.
Genius! That is the best idea
I've heard in a long time regarding big mod (I often refer to them
as "mini-expansions" myself) compatibility.
I'd love to see this idea become more widely used by modders.
-------------------- "I made a town where nobody wears
pants, they all hate you, and constantly call you Frank." -- Pete
Hines
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baratheon79 |
Curate |
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Reged: 05/25/03 |
Posts: 821 |
Loc: NY, USA | |
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When I release
a mod, I try to keep it as conflict-free as possible, though in some
instances I may just make a note of a conflict in the readme, and
let the user deal with it as they choose.
Of course, when
I'm developing a new mod, it only gets tested with those mods I
happen to be using at that time, so there's bound to be some
conflicts I'm not aware of. If a conflict turns up with a mod that I
don't use, then I just have to decide whether to fix the issue or
not (usually not, though, as I don't consider it a priority to fix
conflicts between my mods and mods that I don't even use).
For example, the conflict between my Rethan Expansion mod
and Join All Houses has been known to me for some time now, but I
have yet to make even the slightest effort to fix the conflict. The
reason for this is that I don't use Join All Houses in my own game.
However, I do plan to resolve the issue in the next version using an
extra patch esp. Also, while my mod is compatible with Indarys
Unleashed, that was completely unintentional on my part. The two
mods will not work together when I release the next version of my
mod, due to the scope of the expansion I have planned.
In
short, while I accept that modders could (and often should) try to
minimize conflicts with other mods, we are under no obligation to
download mods that we wouldn't otherwise bother with just to test
for conflicts.
By the way, some may have noticed that when
an issue arises with one of my mods, I don't make a habit of
reuploading the mod with an updated readme. Given that I am on a
dial-up connection, that just isn't feasible when a couple of my
mods are in the 1meg+ range. Instead, when I learn of a conflict, I
will either make a note of it in the mod description on the download
page (those html pages are much smaller than most of my mods, and
thus upload alot quicker) or I will make a post in my own forums. In
other words, since information about the conflict is readily
accessible to those who bother to look, I have fulfilled my only
obligation in that regard as an active modder.
**EDIT**
On the subject of unique IDs, this is why everything in any
of my mods (including the filename itself) uses the prefix "BAR" or
sometimes "_BAR" (in case anyone has never noticed, the first three
letters of my screen name). Since no one else uses that prefix, I
can be sure that there will be no conflicts in that regard.
-------------------- My
Morrowind Mods site and forums
Latest Release: Mercenary Pack Add-On 2: Guards
Edited by baratheon79 (08/15/04 11:53
AM)
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Cortex |
Disciple |
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Reged: 01/09/02 |
Posts: 1327 |
Loc: London, England | |
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Its also nice
if players can report any conflicts they find to modders so the
modder can include it in his readme (after he tests it).
Many modders dont play the game much as they spend far too
much time modding, and since there are thousands of mods out there,
there is no hope he will know all the conflicts without this help.
Obviously the modder should check a few mods he thinks are
likely to be used with his.
The modders responsibility
should be makeing his mod not touch anything unrelated to his mod so
limiting risk of conflicts. Over-simplistic example: if you make
a house mod with a nice looking suit of armor, you shouldnt change
the nif on an existing suit of armor, but instead make a new armor
id.
-------------------- Vampire Embrace 2.1
Vampire Werewolf 1.1
Werewolf Evolution 1.0
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Ronin49 |
Disciple |
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Reged: 03/08/04 |
Posts: 1723 |
Loc: Canada | |
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Comments:
First, some regret for the original Prologue . It
appears that it was entirely unnecessary and perhaps somewhat
presumptuous on my part. To everyone who has posted on this subject
to this point, my thanks and respect for your thoughtful and
informative responses. They certainly give a clear indication of the
effort made by many accomplished mod makers to avoid conflicts
wherever possible.
Secondly, it might have been useful for
me to acknowledge at the beginning that there will always be some
mod conflicts because:
- There are upper limits to such fundamental factors as real
estate and scripting possibilities that tend to force mods into
each other's way.
- Mod making is often an individual sport and it may, for some
time, not be well known where and how a new mod operates. Mod
makers build to their own purposes and communication is often
good, courtesy of these and other forums, but incomplete because
of the nature of the community.
- There are four or five thousand mods about, some of which have
diametrically opposed objectives. Take Cliff Racers as an obvious
example: many mods with entirely different aims - turn them off,
turn them up, make them go away, make them into birds, make them
different colours - are clearly not all going to be compatible.
They would not do what they were intended to do if they were
compatible. And modifying flying lizards is the simplest case - no
dialogue, no real estate conflict and no relationship or close
proximity to quests or NPCs.
- No doubt other reasons no that are not apparent to me at this
instant. Anyone?
The point is that mod conflicts
cannot be eliminated: that is neither possible nor desirable.
They can however to some extent be reduced and managed and that
is what many mod makers seek to do on a daily basis. It would appear
that this is pretty clearly understood by mod makers: it could
usefully have been listed along with the other 'kids' to be gotten
off the street at the top of my original post.
detritus2004 -
Quote:
I have made screenshots of the game map and the cs region map
of my wip, showing the cells I'm changing. I do this because it's
easier than just listing cell coordinates and I think people
understand a visual image better than a list of numbers.
That is the impression I had too. Cell
coordinates become more meaningful as you gain experience with the
game and CS but have little meaning for most folk just starting out.
Mode_Locrian -
Quote:
I will be including an esp file that contains all of the
weapons, armor, objects etc that you can acquire in Bjornholm
without the landmass so, once you're done exploring the island,
you can clean your save and use the items esp to retain all the
loot that you've collected. With respect to avoiding conflicts,
that's about the best solution I can come up with
That seems to me to be a very
impressive solution indeed! It should encourage users toward a
sequential approach to playing 'large mods", with far less concern
about conflicts because they get to keep the more tangible rewards
of that mod experience. Is this difficult to do in addition to the
mod .esp itself? Has it been done by others?
Cortex -
Quote:
Its also nice if players can report any conflicts they find to
modders so the modder can include it in his readme . . .
And I have the impression, from other
comments elsewhere, that feed back of that sort is often lacking or
limited. Is that correct?
It also struck me that that
gamers with some reasonable level of player experience and a
boatload of mods running at once can provide real assistance to a
mod maker wanting to do a check of likely conflicts before release.
Is that correct or merely Utopian?
Finally, it might be
helpful if some other mod users joined the discussion. Anyone else
wish to nudge these ideas along?
-------------------- "And to everyone seeing naked and
headless people, READ THE README!!! It's the answer to all your
troubles." Neoptolemus
Morrowind Mythic Mods ----> Ronin49's Lists
& Links, Starting Out With Mods, Themed Mod Lists, Telesphoros'
List o'Mods
Edited by Ronin49
(08/16/04 12:50 AM)
Post
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grond |
Curate |
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Reged: 06/24/03 |
Posts: 414 |
Loc: prone | |
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Quote:
Mode_Locrian -
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I
will be including an esp file that contains all of the weapons,
armor, objects etc that you can acquire in Bjornholm without the
landmass so, once you're done exploring the island, you can
clean your save and use the items esp to retain all the loot
that you've collected. With respect to avoiding conflicts,
that's about the best solution I can come up with
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ronin-
Quote:
That seems to me to be a very impressive solution indeed! It
should encourage users toward a sequential approach to playing
'large mods", with far less concern about conflicts because they
get to keep the more tangible rewards of that mod experience. Is
this difficult to do in addition to the mod .esp itself? Has it
been done by others?
--------------------------------------------------------
I
think it's a simple matter of collecting the items from your mod and
creating and packing another .esp within the release, and I imagine
that it's fairly easy. Most brilliant ideas are quite simple,
really.
-------------------- Stonewood Hall Version 1.2 (INN Friendly) Stonewood Hall Version 1.1 Stonewood Hall screens
Post Extras: |
Ivza |
Acolyte |
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Reged: 01/05/03 |
Posts: 156 |
Loc: Finland | |
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I have the
habit of first posting here first a WIP-thread, in which I put out a
beta for the mod to play. It shouldn't be a surprise that only a few
download a beta, let alone comment if it conflicts with their mod
configuration.
Because of this, I also post a REL-thread
before I upload the mod anywhere else but my homepage, in hope of
someone finding some conflict to add to the readme. This doesn't
mean that I put out betas as releases, because if there are no
conflicts detected within a day, I usually upload the version
originally mentioned in the post to mod sites. For some reason or
another, redwoodtreesprite was the first one beside myself to
comment on an experienced conflict with my mod this
weekend.
I would expect most conflicts to be noticed only
after the mod is uploaded somewhere for the Great Public to use. Is
a noticed conflict with a rare mod alone a sufficient reason to
update the readme (and perhaps the mod itself) and upload it again
to various sites, especially if the conflict is very minor and can
be easily avoided? I'd rather update my mod pages to list these
conflicts, but I doubt all modders have mod homepages on which to
let people know of known conflicts and give quick fixes to
them.
And I agree with Patrograd2 about using prefixes in
custom objects... I tell the prefix I use (_ivza_##_) for each mod
in the readme in part to ease up cleaning the mod from a save with
TESAME. Unfortunately this isn't of any use to those who don't know
how to use TESAME to clean savegames (and my readmes don't actually
tell to do that...)
-------------------- My mods
and utils: Icatos; Markov Name Generator; Amulet of Scrye;
Haunted Tombs; Blight Bounties
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Reffa |
Curate |
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Reged: 12/11/03 |
Posts: 475 |
Loc: NY, USA - soon to be Ft. Jackson.
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Coming from
someone who has little-to-no skill in modding: I really feel that it
is 100% up to the player as to which mods they use and to deal with
conflicts those mods create. I would never ask a modder to change
the works that they are creating based on what may or may not be a
confliction issue. Modders need to create what they've got inmind,
not what they think will blend seamlessly into what has already been
created. Although I'm sure it is every modder's goal to create a mod
that everyone can use and nobody will conflict with; that just isn't
possible. I think the creative expression of each individual mod is
much more important that hypothetical conflicts. And really, how
often are those conflicts game-ending? I moved the Indy bank with
the CS way before there was an Illuminated Order/Indy Bank Fix out.
If those conflicts really are fatal to the game, then the player
needs to make a choice as to which mod to play first, then simply
follow the "How to play 2149 mods!!" guide.
Just my
two-cents after way too much Guinness...
-Reffa
-------------------- 'Do a search u lazy scrote monkey
'
-mortimermcspongeington
Mage Mod Thread - post your Mage related mods
here! My Character, Xecca
Post
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Clone |
Adept |
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Reged: 06/23/04 |
Posts: 216 |
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I'm going to
have to agree with the statement by Pseron Wyrd. If I were to create
another landmass like my first project "Sea of Destiny" the amount
of conflicts on where to build it would take me forever to figure
out the location. It is hard for us modders to make our mods
conflict free because we can not try out every other mod.
I
mean you the player, ask yourself can you try out all the mods and
check what ones conflict and not? Us modders are in the same shoes
of you. We are both equal. Without you the player, no one would play
our mods. And without us, you still would be playing default
Morrowind.
You the player should understand "most" modders
work very hard on their mod and they should not have to worry about
other mods when they build theirs. We have enough worries in the
editor. Whining to us about conflicts does not help.
Really
no whining should come because if you have two conflicting landmass,
you can make two different saved games each with a landmass. But
also remember us modders aren't evil, we do not try to make
conflicts. We are just modding to make your game play experience
better!
-------------------- Clone
Gaming Studios Current Project: Sea
of Destiny 2
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Speaking for
myself, I try to avoid conflicts with other mods out of
self-interest, not a sense of responsibility. I don't want all my
hard work to be for nothing if it conflicts with a more popular mod.
I think that is probably true for most other modders.
-------------------- Morrowind Mods by Detritus2004
Mystara's Morrowind Links NIFLA: Home of the .nif importer
and exporter for MilkShape
Post Extras: |
skydye |
Disciple |
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Reged: 10/29/03 |
Posts: 1588 |
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No one is
trying to make conflicts.But it's impossible to know every mod that
will conflict with one you are making.The time spent checking each
know mod against your own mod you are doing would make it 100%
impossible to complete anything new. Although I thought Bethesda
should have checked with Clone before releasing Firemoth.These
things just happen.
-------------------- Modding should
be fun. ------------------------------------- Future home of
all my releases. http://www.thelys.org/
Post Extras: |
Pseron Wyrd |
Diviner |
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Reged: 05/13/02 |
Posts: 4277 |
Loc: Paradise | |
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Quote:
Bethesda should have checked with Clone before releasing
Firemoth
That would've been tough for Bethesda
to do, as Firemoth was released several months before clone even
registered on this forum.
-------------------- MW4Kids: the new
cure for Flesh-Eating Disease!
Cait's charity War Child
"I have been imagining you are exquisitely
unattractive" - brash, 10.05.03 "You look very much like
I thought you would" - brash, 10.06.03
Post Extras: |
slategrey |
Curate |
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Reged: 06/25/02 |
Posts: 478 |
Loc: Finland | |
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A quick look
at any decent site will show you that there are THOUSANDS of Mods
out there. It's an impossibility to gaurantee that your Mod will not
conflict with others
There are several things a modder can do
to help the situation though, a few of which have been mentioned
here.
1. If you add anything to the world give it a unique ID
(I use Kai_ or Dresharii_ in my Mods)
2. If you use for
example an item from someone elses mod in your own, and you've
altered it in any way, give it a unique id, so that it doesn't
conflict with the other mod. Not forgetting to ask permission of the
original creator in the first place.
3. Avoid Balmora. No
matter what you do, it will conflict with something
4.
Documentation, Documentation. Give the players as much information
as possible, including console codes for items. This will not only
help the players, but is also a pretty nifty design document for
when you come back to the mod later.
The Modders only real
responsibility is to create a Mod that actually does what it says on
the tin and doesn't leave the player staring at the windows desktop
in frustration. However, most modders also go out of thier way to
resolve conflicts with other mods. I spent a LARGE number of hours
resolving a conflict with Primary Needs 2.6 and Kai Globes 2.7
(hence the release of 2.72). No one reported the problem to me, I
found it on my own and set out to fix it. Why? If I want people to
use my Mod, I have to make it as near conflict free as
possible.
The difference between a modder and a great modder?
Customer support.
The ultimate responsibility however has to
be the players. Armed with all of the information they can get, they
must make an informed decision as to whether the Mod is right for
them.
--------------------------------------------------------
-------------------- ---------------------------------------------
Founder and "Soul" member of the "I love Kai Globes" Fan Club
Kai Globes v2.8, Apprentice Scrolls and Mystic Quills v1.4 .
Don't leave Home without them.
Multi Manniquins V1.2; The
Manniquin that changes to suit your needs.
Post Extras: |
skydye |
Disciple |
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Reged: 10/29/03 |
Posts: 1588 |
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Quote:
Quote:
Bethesda should have checked with Clone before releasing
Firemoth
That would've been tough for
Bethesda to do, as Firemoth was released several months before
clone even registered on this forum.
my bad Pseron I didn't know
that.that kind of takes the funniest out of the joke.I should never
go for the late night laughs.
-------------------- Modding should be fun.
------------------------------------- Future home of all my
releases. http://www.thelys.org/
Post Extras: |
skydye |
Disciple |
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Reged: 10/29/03 |
Posts: 1588 |
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Quote:
2. If you use for example an item from someone Else's mod
in your own, and you've altered it in any way, give it a unique
id, so that it doesn't conflict with the other mod. Not forgetting
to ask permission of the original creator in the first
place.
--------------------------------------------------------
This makes the most sense but it's
the biggest beginner mistake. Never use a unique Id that you have
not renamed.If you can put things into a mesh and texture folder if
possible.Like better heads and so on.
-------------------- Modding should be fun.
------------------------------------- Future home of all my
releases. http://www.thelys.org/
Post Extras: |
slategrey |
Curate |
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Reged: 06/25/02 |
Posts: 478 |
Loc: Finland | |
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Quote:
Quote:
2. If you use for example an item from someone Else's
mod in your own, and you've altered it in any way, give it a
unique id, so that it doesn't conflict with the other mod. Not
forgetting to ask permission of the original creator in the
first
place.
--------------------------------------------------------
This makes the most sense but
it's the biggest beginner mistake. Never use a unique Id that you
have not renamed.If you can put things into a mesh and texture
folder if possible.Like better heads and so on.
Also sound advice. Saves
problems when it comes time for the mod to be uninstalled.
-------------------- ---------------------------------------------
Founder and "Soul" member of the "I love Kai Globes" Fan Club
Kai Globes v2.8, Apprentice Scrolls and Mystic Quills v1.4 .
Don't leave Home without them.
Multi Manniquins V1.2; The
Manniquin that changes to suit your needs.
Post Extras: |
qarl |
Disciple |
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Reged: 05/07/02 |
Posts: 1066 |
Loc: Michigan | |
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This has been
on my mind a lot lately and as most people here, I've always strived
to attain the least amount of conflicts possible in my mods. To that
end, my latest quest mod is almost entirely done in interior cells.
Now I'm not suggesting everyone do this -wouldn't that be boring?
But for the theme of my my it works out great.
Anyway,
there's something I haven't seen mentioned that's also been on my
mind and that is will my mod fit seamlessly into the universe
created by Bethesda and will it philosophically conflict with any
other popular mods? For instance, I'm making a mod which has a lot
of vampire NPCs and explores their day to day existence. There are
many books and films on the subject which contrast wildly with each
other and most are completely different from the vamps in MW. I
don't know of any vamp movies where the vampires have glowing eyes
and walk around with their mouths open all day. Further, the
original game doesn't really delve into their lives at all. They're
pretty much just evil monsters without any sort of passions and
foibles which make things more interesting and life-like -save the
few clan-related things. but where's the
I-fell-in-love-with-a-teen-age-vampire stories?
Or life growing up with a father who is a dremora and mother who is
a vampire. So when making a mod based on their lives I have to break
new ground, but will it contradict things said or done in other
popular vampire mods out there? Probably to some degree, but I'm
trying to minimize it. So anyway, I just thought I'd bring up
another type of conflict that's a bit more subtle and often
overlooked. (And maybe I'm being a tad anal. )
-------------------- -qarl @}-----;---- Visual Pack XT WIP: The Underground Tutorials
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andyw |
Novice |
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Reged: 08/14/03 |
Posts: 11 |
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Well, my take
on this (as a non-modder) is as follows. I see no reason why modders
should avoid or fix conflicts. It's much appreciated if they do, but
as a software engineer I understand how much work it is. Hard,
boring work.
However, as a player, I *really* want to know
about conflicts in advance. And as a dial up user, I don't want to
download a massive mod just to check its readme.
It would be
an immense boon if there were someplace where knowledge of mod
conflicts were gathered, so I can decide what to download.
I
know this sounds arrogant and demanding, especially as I have no
free time to gather this information myself. Of course, what I want
*isn't* the same as what I expect (or ask)!
Post Extras: |
skydye |
Disciple |
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Reged: 10/29/03 |
Posts: 1588 |
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Quote:
This has been on my mind a lot lately and as most people here,
I've always strived to attain the least amount of conflicts
possible in my mods. To that end, my latest quest mod is almost
entirely done in interior cells. Now I'm not suggesting everyone
do this -wouldn't that be boring? But for the theme of my my it
works out great.
Anyway, there's something I haven't seen
mentioned that's also been on my mind and that is will my mod fit
seamlessly into the universe created by Bethesda and will it
philosophically conflict with any other popular mods? For
instance, I'm making a mod which has a lot of vampire NPCs and
explores their day to day existence. There are many books and
films on the subject which contrast wildly with each other and
most are completely different from the vamps in MW. I don't know
of any vamp movies where the vampires have glowing eyes and walk
around with their mouths open all day. Further, the original game
doesn't really delve into their lives at all. They're pretty much
just evil monsters without any sort of passions and foibles which
make things more interesting and life-like -save the few
clan-related things. but where's the
I-fell-in-love-with-a-teen-age-vampire stories?
Or life growing up with a father who is a dremora and mother who
is a vampire. So when making a mod based on their lives I have to
break new ground, but will it contradict things said or done in
other popular vampire mods out there? Probably to some degree, but
I'm trying to minimize it. So anyway, I just thought I'd bring up
another type of conflict that's a bit more subtle and often
overlooked. (And maybe I'm being a tad anal. )
The benefits to a mostly in door
mod are.#1 you can control the textures,so it's not like the city of
balmora where the game set itself to redraw every little thing.As an
In door you control that. #2 coloring as an indoor mod you can
set the color and mood of all the rooms.#3 naming textures.You can
rename all the textures as not else will be using them.#4 scripting
point,#5 music points.The bottom line is it's possible to do a whole
new world with an indoor mod.
-------------------- Modding should be fun.
------------------------------------- Future home of all my
releases. http://www.thelys.org/
Post Extras: |
qarl |
Disciple |
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Reged: 05/07/02 |
Posts: 1066 |
Loc: Michigan | |
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Quote:
The benefits to a mostly in door mod are.#1 you can control
the textures,so it's not like the city of balmora where the game
set itself to redraw every little thing.As an In door you control
that. #2 coloring as an indoor mod you can set the color and
mood of all the rooms.#3 naming textures.You can rename all the
textures as not else will be using them.#4 scripting point,#5
music points.The bottom line is it's possible to do a whole new
world with an indoor mod.
Yep. I'm happily doing all of
that. It's amazing too the huge size of an indoor cell you can have
and not get the slowdown you would with an outdoor cell. But the
scripting and the music are really nice to be able to control in
interior cells. The only thing that sucks is the music changing
during battle. Some cells I just avoid putting monsters in, but some
cells I put in so many little, easy to kill monsters that resurrect
themselves that your going to be fighting the whole time you're in
the cell.
This keeps the music as you set it as well.
-------------------- -qarl @}-----;---- Visual Pack XT WIP: The Underground Tutorials
Post Extras: |
slategrey |
Curate |
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Reged: 06/25/02 |
Posts: 478 |
Loc: Finland | |
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You'll have to
tell me your secret qarl. I'm getting slowdown in my interior cell.
It's a building with 600 objects. Only a couple of scripted objects
as well.
-------------------
-------------------- ---------------------------------------------
Founder and "Soul" member of the "I love Kai Globes" Fan Club
Kai Globes v2.8, Apprentice Scrolls and Mystic Quills v1.4 .
Don't leave Home without them.
Multi Manniquins V1.2; The
Manniquin that changes to suit your needs.
Post Extras: |
Aratex |
Adept |
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Reged: 03/14/02 |
Posts: 281 |
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Quote:
It would be an immense boon if there were someplace where
knowledge of mod conflicts were gathered, so I can decide what to
download.
Telesphoros covers conflicts in his mod lists...
Obviously, he can't cover every mod in the universe, but he covers a
great many.
-------------------- "I made a town where nobody wears
pants, they all hate you, and constantly call you Frank." -- Pete
Hines
Post Extras: |
qarl |
Disciple |
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Reged: 05/07/02 |
Posts: 1066 |
Loc: Michigan | |
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Quote:
You'll have to tell me your secret qarl. I'm getting slowdown
in my interior cell. It's a building with 600 objects. Only a
couple of scripted objects as well.
-------------------
Hmmm, well, I have heard that
on occasion weird fps things just happen that are inexplicable and
people have actually solved the problem by copying everything in the
cell, creating a new cell and pasting everything in. Then for some
reason the new cell -which is exactly the same as the old one, works
fine with no slowdown. Might be worth a try.
-------------------- -qarl @}-----;---- Visual Pack XT WIP: The Underground Tutorials
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Silaria |
Curate |
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Reged: 02/26/03 |
Posts: 534 |
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If this has
been suggested already, just let me know. But how feesible would it
be for one person to open a free Freewebs site (or something free),
give out the password to modders, and allow them to post changes to
the website in regards to landmass locations? This to avoid
conflicting with other mods. I know for a fact that I don't check
every mod in existance to see if my vendors/ houses are going to
conflict with someone elses mod. I just don't have that time on my
hands. However if we broke something out by cell, then at least we'd
have some reference to work off of.
This would take operating
on a high level of trust though, something I would hope most modders
would take seriously. That or we would be reduced to one or two
people making updates.
-------------------- ----^----<{@ Morrowind
Visions ----^----<{@ <- Given to me by
Vorwoda_the_Black
Currently working on: Shirts again!
Post Extras: |
Vincent Dragon |
Diviner |
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Reged: 03/11/02 |
Posts: 4122 |
Loc: HERE! for last 2y,5m,11d.
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not sure if
this was maybe mentioned before but sometimes it just happens that
someone start to make mod for fun or training than end up with great
mod..and he dosent know how to move it... cant really blaim
him..maybe there should be a good guide on moving locations..oh and
as someone sad the ID factor is huge...original A REALLY Original
and unique name should be used for id/texture/mesh
names....
GL
-------------------- http://www.wizards-islands.com/ ||WI veteran||WI_Beta.zip unzipped :933mb lol||
Post Extras: |
slategrey |
Curate |
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Reged: 06/25/02 |
Posts: 478 |
Loc: Finland | |
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Thanks for the
tip qarl. I've got nothing to lose by trying it
-------------------- ---------------------------------------------
Founder and "Soul" member of the "I love Kai Globes" Fan Club
Kai Globes v2.8, Apprentice Scrolls and Mystic Quills v1.4 .
Don't leave Home without them.
Multi Manniquins V1.2; The
Manniquin that changes to suit your needs.
Post Extras: |
Pseron Wyrd |
Diviner |
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Reged: 05/13/02 |
Posts: 4277 |
Loc: Paradise | |
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Quote:
that kind of takes the funniest out of the joke
You know, I wondered if this was a
joke. I even started to edit in a new sentence: "unless this is a
joke..." at the bottom but gave up because I was getting tired.
See the problem is, we don't get a lot of subtle humor
around here. We don't get a lot of subtle anything around
here. It's easy to mis-recognize.
To add to the confusion, I
once saw your 'joke' posted as a serious remark, believe it
or not (I know it was serious because he tried to defend his comment
later in the thread). A great many people posting on these forums
now weren't around when Firemoth was released. Nobody remembers
Morrowind mod history anymore. *spits tobacco juice* Why, back in my
day...
But anyway, I apologize for stepping all over your
joke.
-------------------- MW4Kids: the new cure for Flesh-Eating Disease!
Cait's charity War Child
"I have been imagining you
are exquisitely unattractive" - brash, 10.05.03 "You look
very much like I thought you would" - brash, 10.06.03
Post Extras: |
lancer31 |
Acolyte |
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Reged: 06/27/02 |
Posts: 103 |
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I read through
this thread, and don't come close to having the brains to help
much, but if a beginning modder reads this, please don't put a
file in called "ReadMe", or "Read-Me". I'm pretty sure those have
been used before. While I may have wimped and whined about
conflicts before, I know that I am responsible for my own
actions, whatever they may be, including trying an interesting
sounding mod. There may be one area where problems crop up, that
there is no hope for, but I certainly don't know for sure. This
is the language, keyboard, and other subtle differences between
various countries, including, apparently, operating system,
(Windows, I guess), variations. What does this all mean to me as
a mod user? Not a hell of a lot, really. I have many mods that no
matter how hard I tried to follow the maker's instructions,
(sometimes very kindly responding to personal requests), I never
could get all the "meshes", "textures", and all that stuff, to
end up in the right places. Hardly the end of the world, there's
hundreds more to try! I did open a file in the CS today for the
first time, but whatever it was that I thought I was fixing,
wasn't fixed, but it's OK. One final thought for other mod users,
(everybody knows this, right?) Don't "X" more than one mod at a
time! That makes it easier to get rid of that fool running around
in the yellow diamond suit.
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Thepal |
Disciple |
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Reged: 06/21/03 |
Posts: 1358 |
Loc: Gold Coast, Australia
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Well, I've
read about half the posts in this thread. I don't really feel like
reading the rest.
Anyway, my opinions:
Modders have no
responsibility at all the make their mod compatible with others.
Yes, they should do sensible things like not naming their readme
file "readme.txt" but instead "My wonderful mod of modding's name
readme.txt" and they shouldn't edit the Main script.
There
are thousands of mods out there. Hundreds probably edit Seyda Neen.
Does that mean people shouldn't make a mod there? Of course not.
Caius has probably been edited by dozens of mods, but that doesn't
mean another mod shouldn't be made doing things with him.
If
someone was to make a mod that adds dozens of new monsters to the
game they shouldn't have to make it compatible with GIANTS,
Morrowind Additions, Cait's Critters and the rest of the mods that
do the same. If someone was to make a Ranger/Archery mod they
shouldn't have to seek out all the other ranger mods out there and
make sure they are compatible.
If you expect modders to
download every similar mod, ones that they don't even use or want to
use themselves, just to make their mod compatible then you will
almost never see any new mods. This is what ultimately destroyed my
Life to Morrowind project. I tried to keep it compatible and in the
end it just made everything too difficult to do and time-consuming.
-------------------- -==Thepal==-
Creator of the
Unofficial Patch. For info on that or my Ultima 9 remake or my Quest
for Glory remakes go to: http://etherealsoftware.com.au/forum/index.php
Post Extras: |
Emma |
Disciple |
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Reged: 10/08/02 |
Posts: 1542 |
Loc: Sweden | |
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You are mostly
talking landmasses here, but as the topic is "mod conflicts", I
would want to point you to this thread by JOG with vital information
on how to avoid conflicts in the dialog greetings
sections.
http://www.elderscrolls.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2007868&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
-------------------- Emma's Morrowind Site My mods - TheLys Gamer's Roam WIP Head packs
Post Extras: |
skydye |
Disciple |
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Reged: 10/29/03 |
Posts: 1588 |
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Quote:
Quote:
that kind of takes the funniest out of the joke
You know, I wondered if this was a
joke. I even started to edit in a new sentence: "unless this is a
joke..." at the bottom but gave up because I was getting
tired.
See the problem is, we don't get a lot of subtle
humor around here. We don't get a lot of subtle
anything around here. It's easy to mis-recognize.
To add to the confusion, I once saw your 'joke' posted as
a serious remark, believe it or not (I know it was serious
because he tried to defend his comment later in the thread). A
great many people posting on these forums now weren't around when
Firemoth was released. Nobody remembers Morrowind mod history
anymore. *spits tobacco juice* Why, back in my day...
But
anyway, I apologize for stepping all over your joke.
lol *spits tobacco Juice*Yes these
young whippersnappers now a days.They are all talent and no humor.
-------------------- Modding should be fun.
------------------------------------- Future home of all my
releases. http://www.thelys.org/
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Thepal |
Disciple |
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Reged: 06/21/03 |
Posts: 1358 |
Loc: Gold Coast, Australia
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Landmass
conflicts were only mentioned once in my post... I also mentioned
scripts, and other mods that have nothing at all to do with
landmasses (ranger mods, etc). I almost never deal with landmasses
so I my mind definately wasn't on them.
The fact is that
mods, especially similar ones, will conflict. That's just the way it
works. When someone releases a mod they shouldn't have to make sure
it works with other mods, and here is one very good
reason.
What mods are they meant to make it compatible with?
There are thousands of mods out there? Are they meant to make it
compatible with all of them? If not, which ones? The most popular
ones? The best ones? Who decides which are the best? The modder
mightn't want to bother making it compatible with GIANTS since they
don't like it and yet a lot of people use that. Should they
therefore have to download it, look through all the scripts and
additions and make sure there are no conflicts?
If someone
makes a new vampire mod, should they have to make it compatible with
Vampire Embrace and the other vampire mods out there? Most of them
change a lot about how vampires are handled in the game and would
completely destroy a lot of mods out there if they had to be made
compatible.
Personally, I don't use any mods while playing
except Real Signposts, Rhedd's Heads and my patch. If I was to make
a mod would I then be expected to download all the popular mods out
there and test everything with them all installed and then spend
days/weeks/months fixing any bugs/conflicts? Or even worse, should I
have to take into account every mod out there while creating the mod
to try to keep things compatible? (as I did with LtM which made
everything almost impossible and in the end led to it being
abandoned)
The modder should not have to worry about their
mod conflicting with other mods, unless they really want to. Unless
you've made a mod that adds more than some models or a house or some
simple scripting you'll have no idea what conflict really means.
-------------------- -==Thepal==-
Creator of the
Unofficial Patch. For info on that or my Ultima 9 remake or my Quest
for Glory remakes go to: http://etherealsoftware.com.au/forum/index.php
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Emma |
Disciple |
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Reged: 10/08/02 |
Posts: 1542 |
Loc: Sweden | |
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Thepal, I
was replying to this whole thread, not only to you, sorry if you
misinterpreted me.
As for GIANTS, it produces so many
conflicts with other mods (for instance race-filtered voice entries
at the top of the voice section, which will overwrite all
ID-filtered voice entries), so that would probably be the main
reason why a modder would want to take a look at it before release
(I have a warning in the readme for some of my quests- and companion
mods that some of the features won't show up if the player is
running a version of GIANTS that are newer than my
mods).
Quote:
The modder should not have to worry about their mod
conflicting with other mods, unless they really want to. Unless
you've made a mod that adds more than some models or a house or
some simple scripting you'll have no idea what conflict really
means.
Guess it's up to every
modders' own judgement to decide how much time he wants to spend on
researching work by others in order to avoid specific conflicts. But
I assume that most people that make a quest mod would avoid adding a
house in Balmora to this mod, as that is obviously bound to cause
loads of conflicts (as Balmora has more house mods than any other
area), and probably the modder would also avoid to add new greetings
to MW-quest npcs, as there would be an obvious chance for
conflicts.
I do believe, though, that modders have a
responsability to avoid "general" conflicts, for instance by setting
up dialog and scripts in a way that won't ruin the work by others.
And as I actually have made mods that adds more than some
models or a house or some simple scripting, I do have an idea what
conflict really means (but I take it this sentence wasn't directed
specifically to me ).
-------------------- Emma's Morrowind Site My mods - TheLys Gamer's Roam WIP Head packs
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Thepal |
Disciple |
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Reged: 06/21/03 |
Posts: 1358 |
Loc: Gold Coast, Australia
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Heh, yeah, the
comment definately wasn't directed at you :P
I thinked I'm
kinda biased against any and all conflict fixing as you can probably
tell :P I've done enough that I now hate it very, very much. Hence
deciding to just stick to TCs.
-------------------- -==Thepal==-
Creator of the
Unofficial Patch. For info on that or my Ultima 9 remake or my Quest
for Glory remakes go to: http://etherealsoftware.com.au/forum/index.php
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Ivza |
Acolyte |
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Reged: 01/05/03 |
Posts: 156 |
Loc: Finland | |
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Emma, thank
you VERY much for that link - I never read the editor forum, so I've
never read about this... (and if I'm not terribly wrong, my first
post on these forums was a question of asking how to make clean
dialogue - I think it went unanswered then, but at last I have my
answer
)
Although now that I know I should move my dialogues entries
from the end of the list to the middle... (/me thinks of the amount
of dialogue that should be moved) <sigh>
-------------------- My mods
and utils: Icatos; Markov Name Generator; Amulet of Scrye;
Haunted Tombs; Blight Bounties
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Emma |
Disciple |
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Reged: 10/08/02 |
Posts: 1542 |
Loc: Sweden | |
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Quote:
Emma, thank you VERY much for that link - I never read the
editor forum, so I've never read about this... (and if I'm not
terribly wrong, my first post on these forums was a question of
asking how to make clean dialogue - I think it went unanswered
then, but at last I have my answer
)
Although now that I know I should move my dialogues
entries from the end of the list to the middle... (/me thinks of
the amount of dialogue that should be moved) <sigh>
If you are interested in
dialog, you might find this thread useful: http://www.elderscrolls.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1227862
Also
check out Srikandi't tutorial, linked from that thread.
As
for your specific <sigh>, this shouldn't be that hard. Just
move a few of the last Bethesda dialog lines to the bottom instead
of moving all your dialog entries upwards.
Just make sure that the dialog lines end up in exactly the right
order!! Then, you can clean away the * either with TESAME or in
the details list of the constructions set.
Thepal, Being
an Ultima fan, I must say that I'm very much looking forward to your
TC-project!
-------------------- Emma's Morrowind Site My mods - TheLys Gamer's Roam WIP Head packs
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DinkumThinkum |
Diviner |
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Reged: 09/19/01 |
Posts: 4715 |
Loc: Luna Penal Colony | |
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As far as the
issues of conflicting landmasses, houses in the same locations,
etc.:
There've been repeated efforts in this forum over the
last couple of years to compile lists of locations used by mods, set
up a database, etc. As far as I know, every one of them fizzled out
fairly quickly.
Too
much work for the person organizing the information, too few modders
submitting information or helping to put it all together, too much
clutter from WIP mods that never get past the wishful thinking
stage, etc.
Obviously, it would be nice if modders checked
the locations of very popular mods before picking a home for their
new landmass, town, etc. But there are just too many mods out there
for anybody to do any kind of thorough check in a reasonable amount
of time.
The
idea (mentioned earlier in this thread) of including a map with a
mod is excellent, and doesn't require any special skills or effort:
the modder just puts his character at the location used by the mod,
maximizes the map window, and takes a screen shot.
That would
at least make it easier for a mod user to spot a conflict before he
installs a new mod and discovers that his house is now buried under
a new merchant's shop...
Also, for any modders not aware
of it: there is a utility, TESFaith, for moving exterior cells
(including objects and landscaping) to new locations. I've never
used it, but it's discussed occasionally in the Construction Set
forum, and you should be able to find it at most major Morrowind
download sites.
-------------------- How to avoid the
most common problem encountered by new modders: Dirty Saves: Causes and Cures
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Matthew13 |
Curate |
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Reged: 06/23/03 |
Posts: 693 |
Loc: Here. | |
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A quick note
on avoiding dialogue conflicts. I'd say that 90+% of all dialogue
conflicts are caused by not properly filtering the dialogue. For
example, remove that individual ID filter on the "Squeek" greeting
in Greeting 0 and suddenly everybody in Morrowind is a
mouse.
Filtering greeting dialogue is not so much a matter of
where it is in the stack. All of my dialogue is in Greeting 0 at the
top. It is a matter of narrowly filtering it. All of my greeting
dialogue is filtered to an individual ID, to a faction that I've
created, or to cells that I have created. . .AT A MINIMUM. Much of
it is also filtered according to quests that are ongoing, PCVampire,
and PCSex. Mostly this is just a matter of being anal retentive,
because screwing this up can be more irritating than cliff racers.
So,
there's my two cents worth. . .hope it's worth the
price.
-------------------- Matthew
Imagination IS more important than knowledge. . .but
knowledge is a close second.
Creator of Suran Underworld Writer of Random
Thoughts
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Nadra |
Novice |
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Reged: 10/13/03 |
Posts: 42 |
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As a mod user
that frequents the forum looking for new releases I think a
responsible part of release is letting users know if there are
potential conflicts with other major mods. By major I mean that
there are probably a couple of hundred very well known mods out of
the thousands available that most seasoned players making mods would
have or most new users would be directed to in the quest,
conversion, replacer and housing categories that do butt up against
each other. A novice is going to need a warning label so they don't
think the game is broken or your mod is bad. At the novice level it
was hard for me to figure out if I had a real conflict or a badly
built mod. When choosing a mod I look at user feedback posts and at
category conflict. Also having some categoric warning of potential
conflict helps determine playing order for some mods. For example I
have Skeleton Island and the Black Queen Chronicles. I am going to
play through one of these first because there is a known conflict
with one of the landmasses. This is much better for me to know
rather than loading everyhing into my game and then wondering why
nothing works and then posting there is something wrong with the
mod.
One of the things I have learned to do for better or
worse for miscellaneous tweaks and clothing mods is check the
location of these new NPC's, or houses in the CS and see if there is
a conflict. If I really like what the new mod adds to the game I
will move the colliding houses or reassign the NPC to a more
convenient location for myself. This isn't possible for quest mods
so I am always careful to check the readme to see where new
buildings are added and if there is an overwrite problem. As a user
I would prefer to know if there were dialogue conflicts between
certain mods in advance becasue I am not really capable of
correcting those kind of things and I woud prefer not to destroy my
in game experience if I can avoid it. Downloding a mod is a hopeful
experience. You want it to work, run smoothly and add fun and color
to the game. I don't believe you have to post all potential
conflicts, but I think if you can check for major releases in your
category that could conflict with your work you should indicate that
in the readme.
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Nadra, the
problem with that is that major releases are often just that - the
Horror mod for example is over 80mb, and there are plenty of other
mods over 10mb. For some of us it is just not practical to download
these things, even for our own use, and especially not just to test
if there's some sort of incompatibility.
-------------------- Djupsgaard - Hidden Halls 1.1
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Ronin49 |
Disciple |
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Reged: 03/08/04 |
Posts: 1723 |
Loc: Canada | |
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Polycrates -
Quote:
For some of us it is just not practical to download these
things, even for our own use, and especially not just to test if
there's some sort of incompatibility.
That, I think, is a reasonable
practical difficulty that has been raised by several mod makers. I
get the impression that most folk actually making mods will have few
loaded. The point made by a few others, I thought, was that one can
reasonably expect that some number of other mods will be run at the
same time so the mod will almost certainly not be running in an
otherwise mod-free environment.
What about this
suggestion?
Quote:
It also struck me that that gamers with some reasonable level
of player experience and a boatload of mods running at once can
provide real assistance to a mod maker wanting to do a check of
likely conflicts before release. Is that correct or merely
Utopian?
I would have thought that is
where folk who want to help but do not themselves mod could do their
part to contribute?
-------------------- "And to
everyone seeing naked and headless people, READ THE README!!! It's
the answer to all your troubles." Neoptolemus
Morrowind Mythic Mods ----> Ronin49's Lists
& Links, Starting Out With Mods, Themed Mod Lists, Telesphoros'
List o'Mods
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Nadra |
Novice |
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Reged: 10/13/03 |
Posts: 42 |
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Polycrates, I
don't think you will need to test all of the major releases. I think
for inexperienced users it would be worthwhile in the readme section
to point out where potential conflict may lie. For example heavily
scripted and dialogued quest mods can overwright one another. This
gives the user a way to troubleshoot and ask better questions should
they get stuck or need help with a fix.
Perhaps it would be
helpful in the beta to solicit for specific feedback from those
users that are using some of the major mods. Another thought is to
pin to this forum or somewhere what the most common conflicts are
and how work around them.
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Pseron Wyrd |
Diviner |
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Reged: 05/13/02 |
Posts: 4277 |
Loc: Paradise | |
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Quote:
it would be worthwhile in the readme section to point out
where potential conflict may lie
That's fine advice, for mods
that have been BETA'ed. But as you can tell from glancing over the
first page of mods at Euro-RPG, if you have the stomach for it
(multiple versions of mods uploaded again and again, often within
hours) an increasing number of modders these days do not bother to
beta test their mods. Read the [REL] threads in this forum and you
will see, time after time, some variant of "Well, I haven't really
tested this much, but here it is. Lemme know if you find any
problems." These people aren't going to have the slightest clue
whether their mods conflict with anything.
You have two
problems here: 1) that a great many modders don't bother to play the
game anymore and have likely lost touch with how mods react to one
another. (I will go further than this: I believe many modders
tacitly assume that their mod will be the only one of its kind
installed in your game. How else to explain a house mod whose
landscaping alters unnecessarily vast tracts of land in all
directions? Or, for that matter, the gazillion mods set in Seyda
Neen and Balmora? Modders, being creative people, tend to live in
their own little worlds). This is a problem in all the arts, not
just in modding. Artists want their work patronized but are
notorious for not patronizing the work of others. Writers - myself
included - are well-known for opening a literary magazine only when
their work is featured. You see it here in the Mods Forum in the
form of countless complaints that nobody is responding to a [WIP] or
[REL] thread. I have had to point out to a few of these people that
they are, for the most part, talking to other modders, people who
are engaged in their own projects and who are here, many of them,
mainly to promote their own work. How many modders around here post
mainly in their own threads? I will let the reader answer that
question.
2) An unfortunate fact: mods nowadys are getting
huger and huger. They're gargantuan, some of them. 10 meg
mods were practically unknown two years ago. Now it's becoming rare
to find even a house mod these days that is under 5 megs. Modders
have contracted 'Blockbuster Syndrome': every mod seemingly has to
be bigger and flashier, contain more trinkets, gizmos, baubles and
bangles than the last mod of its kind. Mod-makers apparently think
it's necessary to cram their works with new textures, new meshes,
new icons, even new music *shudders* or 'the public' won't be
interested. Too many mods are full of uninteresting bloat.
I
will tell you a little secret: many players don't donwload these
monsters. We write glowing posts in [REL] threads and may even
say we'll download this beauty as soon as we get home from work
(yeah, right) but if you take an anonymous poll of forum members I
think you will find that relatively few of us have had the patience
to download 40 meg or 80 meg mods. Even fewer of us have actually
played through them. It is not an easy task to find beta testers who
have played through huge mods, as wonderful as some of them are, and
can tell you how your mod conflicts.
So - where is the data
for your readme warnings going to come from? From modders? Not
likely, too many of them are too busy modding. From the players?
Yes, but less than half of us players on the forum, by my
unscientific guess, have actually played all the way through some of
these mega-mods. Those few of us who have the necessary dialog and
journal entries stored in a save game and who are willing to
beta test and who are articulate enough to write a critique
worth reading are few and far between. And that's assuming, of
course, that our modder even bothers to beta test in the first
place...
I don't want to sound pessimistic here, but I'm
afraid that pointing out potential conflicts in readme's is not
likely to happen anytime soon.
-------------------- MW4Kids: the new
cure for Flesh-Eating Disease!
Cait's charity War Child
"I have been imagining you are exquisitely
unattractive" - brash, 10.05.03 "You look very much like
I thought you would" - brash, 10.06.03
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Ivza |
Acolyte |
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Reged: 01/05/03 |
Posts: 156 |
Loc: Finland | |
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Quote:
How many modders around here post mainly in their own
threads?
I confess. (Although I've been trying
to behave better. Really. The results just aren't that
good.)
Quote:
I don't want to sound pessimistic here, but I'm afraid that
pointing out potential conflicts in readme's is not likely to
happen anytime soon.
Sure, telling "this mod might
conflict with mods A through H" is not likely to happen, but telling
"this mod might/will conflict with other residence mods just south
of Balmora" is not that difficult to come up with. Or saying "this
mod is likely to conflict with mods that do something to
this-and-that creature". Or "you should use a leveled list merger".
The infamous anonymous modder won't even have to play the mod to be
able to mention this kind of warnings. Of course, these tend to get
too technical or just blatantly obvious for most players
-------------------- My mods
and utils: Icatos; Markov Name Generator; Amulet of Scrye;
Haunted Tombs; Blight Bounties
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Well, I
skimmed the thread, and now I'll toss in my 2 cents -
I
think modders make and release mods for 2 reasons - they enjoy doing
something creative, and they want other people to see, experience,
and enjoy their creations. Some people place more value on the first
reason, and others focus on the second, but both are always factors.
As far as responsibilities, modders work for free and for
fun. They owe the user nothing, and they have absolutely no
responsibility to make their mod work with any other mod. I do
believe that modders ought to test their work, clean their .ESPs,
and make a point of not screwing up the game, but that falls under
best-practice, not responsibility. We all use every mod at our own
risk and with no guarantees.
Having stated that modders
really have no responsibilities to their consumers, it's worth
noting that if they want to fulfill their second desire - to have
their work seen and admired by others - then obviously best-practice
would be to take some time to ensure that they make a product that's
as well-crafted and conflict-free as possible. Every bug and/or
conflict decreases their potential audience.
So with that in
mind, it makes sense for modders to be aware of the more popular
mods and to try not to conflict with them. They don't have to, but
then nobody has to DL their work either.
-------------------- My Screens - Check 'Em Out http://www.cuneo.us/tesmw/browse.php?dir=GreenEyedYam
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andyw |
Novice |
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Reged: 08/14/03 |
Posts: 11 |
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My apologies
if I'm re-stating something (just skimming during my lunch break!),
but would a thread called 'I found a mod conflict' be any help?
Sure, this would consist largely of people *asking* about conflicts,
and would go moribund eventually, but while it lived it could
collect a lot of info. And it seems clear that info about conflicts
(rather than fixing/avoiding them) is going to be
useful.
Telesphorus' list of mods isn't really a good place,
as it's a web page that needs regular updating, while a thread is
more convenient and spontaneous.
Just a thought.
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