I know there are some plugin's out there that one shouldn't clean with said tool, so I thought it would be a good idea to start a list so people would be aware.

Actually, I don't know any off the top of my head so somebody else will have to start this up.

Two right out of the top of my head are;

Vampire Embrace

Multi Mark

Umm I would perfer if people didn't clean Solstheim Castle with Testool. Testool keeps deleting the empty hit sounds for the Mannequins...so they start screaming again when you walk in the room. I should have put that in the readme, can't tell you how many people sent me emails complaining about screaming mannequins...and everytime they admited to cleaning it with testool (no need to...it's already cleaned)

This is a great idea. Hope we get lots and lots and this gets pinned... somewhere...

Diva

I remember some unhappy results when I ran Blood and Gore through testool. But the problems I had could have come from elsewhere too...hard to be absolutely certain.

I believe one should not clean Wizards Island or Golblin Laboratory with testool. (these are just off the top of my head, though, and I may be wrong)

This is a great idea. I've nothing to add at the moment, but I still like the idea.

I don't clean mods any more with TESTool. I think it causes more problems than it solves.

Yes - but I get tired of removing all the GMSTs by hand. Just found out about the plug-in that you put last that'll do that for you.

Well, I don't use a lot of mods that (I hope) alter GMST's.

Bloodmoon spell fix and Combat Angle adjustmant both rely on gmst's.

ANY balance mod, such as Wakim's, Taddeus or 'Big Mod', etc, should not be cleaned.

'Marksman Mod' should not be cleaned.

'Giants' should not be cleaned.

Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Are you sure about Big Mod? I have observed it with Enchanted Editor recently and I did not like what I saw there. I have even disabled it for now (too many of the 72 evil GMSTs to clean them manually, and TESTool, yeah it removes a lot of cells, GMSTs and whatnot - dirt? ). And I dislike the wealthy Creeper who buys everything and teleports you to some places BTW. Economy fixes delete that anyway...

GIANTs just looks like it contains (4) of the evil GMSTs, but TESTool does not touch 'em (no idea what sort of intelligence behind that).

Bloodmoon spellfix should not be necessary if you clean every plugin thoroughly (or if you just put "GMST fix" to the end of the load order). Also I think I have not even seen any GMSTs in BM spellfix.

This post has been edited by DWS: May 10 2005, 11:26 PM

I just took a look in Big Mod to make sure and it does change a few GMSTs other than the evil 72. Now I'm not an expert on how TESTool goes about its business so it's possible it may ignore any GMST outside of the 'Gang Of 72'. If it does, then most of these mods are in no trouble, as most of the GMSTs changed by the named mods are not among the 72.

However, if it removes references to any GMSTs then 'Big Mod' should stay on the list.

EDIT: I see Horatio is about to post. Ignore anything I say in favor of his post.

This post has been edited by Pseron Wyrd: May 10 2005, 11:34 PM

You shouldn't remove GMST entries from any mods that alter the balance of the game. TESTool won't remove these either. You should be very suspicious of any non-balance/gameplay mod containing GMSTs.

The "Evil GMSTs" are GMSTs that were added in the expansion. They will appear in any mod saved when only Morrowind.esm is loaded in the editor (as opposed to having tribunal.esm and bloodmoon.esm loaded as well).

As for the TESTool cleaner, Wiz Islands doesn't like it. Haven't had any other issues with it. It really shouldn't make much difference if you clean the mods if you're using the "Merge Objects" function anyway.

It doesn't even do anything about real unclean entries anyway, which would be something the author inadvertently changed without meaning to.

Cheers

h

Fairly certain that TESTool only deletes the 72 GMSTs. I don't think GMST cleaning is the function of TESTool which will cause problems. Merging Levelled Lists most likely is also harmless... But I'm not sure about merging objects, and I've heard plenty of times not to merge dialogue, that that will cause all sorts of error-y goodness.

I don't really understand what's going on with those latter two. What exactly about the objects and dialogue is supposed to be merged, why does TESTool do that, and what does it mess up?

It removes some of them, but not everyone. Unfortunately the testool.log for BigMod is too large to post it here, just the first part:

[QUOTE]File: BigMod 2.2.esp
==============================
deleted GMST sTeleportDisabled
deleted GMST sLevitateDisabled
deleted GMST sWerewolfRefusal
deleted GMST sWerewolfPopup
deleted GMST sWerewolfRestMessage
deleted GMST sWerewolfAlarmMessage
deleted GMST sMaxSale
deleted GMST sDeleteNote
deleted GMST sEditNote
deleted GMST sProfitValue
deleted GMST sCompanionShare
deleted GMST sCompanionWarningMessage
deleted GMST sCompanionWarningButtonOne
deleted GMST sCompanionWarningButtonTwo
deleted GMST fDamageStrengthMult
deleted GMST fEffectCostMult
deleted GMST fCorpseClearDelay
deleted GMST iLevelupTotal
deleted GMST iLevelupMinorMult
deleted GMST iLevelUp02Mult
deleted GMST iLevelUp03Mult
deleted GMST iLevelUp05Mult
deleted GMST iLevelUp06Mult
deleted GMST iLevelUp08Mult
deleted GMST iLevelUp10Mult
deleted GMST fHandToHandReach
deleted GMST iTrainingMod
deleted GMST fSleepRestMod
deleted GMST fWereWolfRunMult
deleted GMST fWereWolfSilverWeaponDamageMult
deleted GMST iWereWolfBounty
deleted GMST fWereWolfStrength
deleted GMST fWereWolfAgility
deleted GMST fWereWolfEndurance
deleted GMST fWereWolfSpeed
deleted GMST fWereWolfHandtoHand
deleted GMST fWereWolfUnarmored
deleted GMST iWereWolfLevelToAttack
deleted GMST iWereWolfFightMod
deleted GMST iWereWolfFleeMod
deleted GMST fWereWolfAthletics
deleted GMST fWereWolfAcrobatics
deleted GMST fWereWolfHealth
deleted GMST fWereWolfFatigue
deleted GMST fWereWolfMagicka
deleted GMST fWereWolfIntellegence
deleted GMST fWereWolfWillPower
deleted GMST fWereWolfPersonality
deleted GMST fWereWolfLuck
deleted GMST fWereWolfBlock
deleted GMST fWereWolfArmorer
deleted GMST fWereWolfMediumArmor
deleted GMST fWereWolfHeavyArmor
deleted GMST fWereWolfBluntWeapon
deleted GMST fWereWolfLongBlade
deleted GMST fWereWolfAxe
deleted GMST fWereWolfSpear
deleted GMST fWereWolfDestruction
deleted GMST fWereWolfAlteration
deleted GMST fWereWolfIllusion
deleted GMST fWereWolfConjuration
deleted GMST fWereWolfMysticism
deleted GMST fWereWolfRestoration
deleted GMST fWereWolfEnchant
deleted GMST fWereWolfAlchemy
deleted GMST fWereWolfSecurity
deleted GMST fWereWolfSneak
deleted GMST fWereWolfLightArmor
deleted GMST fWereWolfShortBlade
deleted GMST fWereWolfMarksman
deleted GMST fWereWolfMerchantile
deleted GMST fWereWolfSpeechcraft
deleted GMST fCombatDistanceWerewolfMod
deleted GMST fFleeDistance
deleted GMST sEffectSummonFabricant
deleted GMST sEffectSummonCreature01
deleted GMST sEffectSummonCreature02
deleted GMST sEffectSummonCreature03
deleted GMST sEffectSummonCreature04
deleted GMST sEffectSummonCreature05
deleted GMST sMagicFabricantID
deleted GMST sMagicCreature01ID
deleted GMST sMagicCreature02ID
deleted GMST sMagicCreature03ID
deleted GMST sMagicCreature04ID
deleted GMST sMagicCreature05ID
deleted GLOB abelmawiaCounter
deleted SPEL voice of the emperor
deleted SPEL star-curse
deleted SPEL charioteer ability
deleted SPEL wrath of dagoth
deleted SPEL wrath of vivec

...

deleted STAT Furn_colony_stonetable01
deleted CREA skeleton_stahl_uni
CELL 15 1, Tel Fyr

... [a lot of CELLS]

CELL Vivec's Scibe
deleted INFO 871739891262229779 ; IL_Grandmaster
deleted INFO 576932167290605878 ; Vassir Didanat Mine
deleted INFO 1167237432045126568 ; theater troupe
deleted INFO 17545243371364211941 ; little advice
deleted INFO 31437326142699821404 ; little secret
deleted INFO 16027228191418416208 ; latest rumors
deleted INFO 46509113264814047 ; Ralen Tilvur
deleted INFO 20481194642735427051 ; Greeting 1
deleted DIAL theater troupe ; empty dialog
deleted DIAL Telvanni spy ; empty dialog
deleted DIAL elementals ; empty dialog
deleted DIAL Balmora ; empty dialog
==============================
Saved: Clean BigMod 2.2.esp

EDIT: Yes, a list about which mods should not be dialog merged would be good also:

The white wolf of Lokken mountain !!!

This post has been edited by DWS: May 10 2005, 11:51 PM

Never merge dialogue on big quest mods, IMO.

PS regarding Big Mod:
Do you also have Creeper with 105,000 buying everything and 5,000 Gold in (one of the first) container with Fagoth's Ring?

This one I have is so freaking unbelievable dirty that it looks like it could have been tweaked by a "Fan"...

Modders nowadays should know about cleaning tools and if by any means they play with GMSTs, they should clearly state about this in their readmes - > otherwise even the best mod is going to be forwarded to my trash bin directly!

No problem here .

Yep, I think the same way. I've never really been bothered by 'unclean mods', so usually I ignore all the 'world is ending because of GMSTs' talk. I also rarely tear apart mods, or automaticly trash them. I just don't care.

Big Mod changes just about everything in the game, doesn't it? Thats a big 'don't clean' sign to me.

the only thing I do with testool is run the lvled list and the object merger. (then I have to run the lvled list resequencer to pick up where testool left off)

I disagree. You obviously just do not think about the root causes for "unknown" things like malfunctioning summon fabricant/bear/wolf spells and whatnot. This (and more) exactly is caused by dirty mods which containt the 72 evil GMST crap.

eh, I don't summon those things. Never have, probably never will. What else is causing the sky to fall?

Most GMST's are from BloodMoon and relate to Werewolf Stats, there is a few (11) in Tribunal tough that seems to control "Mazed Band" and ehh something about NPC's sharing stuff (The Tribunal Mercenary Perhaps?)

I guess I will have to take a closer look at the Mods in your sig...

I try to remember to clean my own mods before uploading, just because it's a pain to listen to the outcry. I also don't like the idea of my 'hard' work getting thrown away because of 72 somethings that I don't see affecting my game in any way. But I do try.

Be very careful about how you clean using TESTool, I'd recommend using both restricted cleaning options (Restricted Dialogue & Cell cleaning) at all times. My understanding is that the restricted cleaning modes only remove entries that are identical to stock morrowind.esm entries.

I think a lot of the problems people are reporting are due to cleaning mods without the restricted cleaning options active, this sort of over-zealous cleaning will probably break a lot of things

edit:
A few people seem to be confused about GMST entries in mods. Not all GMST entries are bad, what is bad is including the default (un-changed) values of any GMST. Loading this default value after a mod that alters the value of that game setting will undo the prior change. Remember that mods are loaded in sequential order and that anything loaded later will overwrite something loaded earlier.

Also bad are the 'evil 72' GMSTs, these are 72 tribunal/bm settings that are set to 0 and added to any mod saved w/o bloodmoon.esm or tribunal.esm active. These tend to break spells & quests from tribunal & bloodmoon, hence the bad reputation.

This post has been edited by halo112358: May 11 2005, 03:54 AM

This is why I use the 'Just Fix It!' feature of TESTool. JFI uses the restricted cleaning, which I've always felt more comfortable using. I then resequence (although my merged lists rarely need to be resequenced - I could probably safely skip this step) and delete the Merged Dialogs .esp.

The last posts explain a lot of my open questions, thanks.

But I am curious about another one. I have taken a look into a masterfile (esm) with enchanted editor and found 4 GMSTs from the evil 72 GMST list (doublechecked it line by line). TEStool did not remove these GMSTs ?! I assume this is because it was a masterfile?

PS: Disregard this, I have received the answer from the author of the esm: "If you are using the bloodmoon versions, those GMST entries are supposed to be there.
They enable you to summon ancient ... and ancient ...", removed what exactly to not confuse someone about which esm it was. That means: TEStool seems to be a very intelligent tool in this case. It does not even remove INTENDED GMSTs even if they are on the "evil list". Impressive.

This post has been edited by DWS: May 11 2005, 04:22 AM

White Wolf of Lokken will be broken if you use TESTool on the dialog.
Same goes for Witchgirl Adventure, and most likely for the rest of my mods.

Dialog-intense mods don't get along with TESTool!!

Thanks for that explaination, Halo. I am now better informed.
Emma, you're talking about merging the dialog right? Not just cleaning your mods?

I BELIEVE I am only talking about the dialog. I must admit that I haven't used TESTool, myself, I have just tried to help those who have had issues with the dialog after using TESTool on it.

You are probably right - cleaning the mod wouldn't cause any problems. But... I wouldn't believe that I have left anything for you to clean in them?? I thought everything I have uploaded was completely clean already?

This is correct. I could have relied on your ultra clean mods, but yesterday I have gone through my complete plugin list one by one, so... but I have found absolutely nada, superclean.

Ive never used TESTool so i dont know the exact names of all the things i should put in my readme for you not to do with VE.
Are these the correct TESTool names?

Dialog merge
Just fix it

You've got it - fwiw I merged dialogues from your mods a while back and it caused all sorts of problems, I highly recommend not doing that...

Another question:

After running TEStool (with the fix all option) are things like dialog removed PERMANENTLY from a mod like White Wolf of Lokken, or only when you have the 'Merged Dialog' esp ticked?

A while ago I was told to always run TESTools, so I did. I had problems with broken quests and everything. Now I'm about to start up a new character, do I have to reinstall all my ESP's, or can i just leave the Merged Dialog and Merged Items list unticked?

I think this post pretty much covers this:



The merged dialogs.esp is similar to merged objects.esp and the merged levelled lists. The merged lists function itself does not change any mod, just it adds an esp to the end of the load order, which can be removed afterwards. Removal of merged dialogs ist recommended because of the many script sensitive dialog mods, from my understanding so far.

Merged Objects BTW is untagged in my setup also. I just have seen a couple of hairless heads and missing calves with this.

This post has been edited by DWS: May 11 2005, 06:26 AM

I used testool since 1st beta version, and never had any pbls using merging lists and objects.
On the other hand as I dont use Vgreetings I never used the dialogue merging option (On the read me of testools it says that only Vgreetings or similar mods shoud be merged for dialogues).
I never deleted the gmt's with testool, still use old tesame for that (That way I delete only the 72 bad 1).
So why I advogue the use of testool?
Cause is the best tool to order, reagroup and display the esp/esm
And cause with Aerelon resenquencer, creates the most safe leveled lists. to use (Hotatio's leveled list merger only creates the merged lists and as Aerelon resequencer does not patch it, has the same pbls as Testools without patch)

This post has been edited by Gen_Lee: May 11 2005, 08:41 AM

The BM spellfix I have relies on GMSTs. And even with thoroughly clean plugins I still need it to have those spells work (I think the fix I have also works with the Trib spells).

What's the best for levelled list merging? I've never had to do it before, but I've got some mods I want to try where I would need to do it.

1) TES plugin tool 1.3 to create the levelled list:
http://www34.brinkster.com/ghostwheel/

2) Aerolorns resequencer tool (which I do not find any more)

Thanks DWS
Resequencing is just changing file order, right? I can do that with Properties Plus (lets me change the file date).

No, the resequencer is a tool to fix a bug in the leveled list merge function of TESTool.

Here's the old release thread describing what it does.

Found it on the Summit:

Leveled List Resequencer for TESTool at Morrowind Summit

Thanks yall

There are 9 possible Morrowind.exe files. ( 3 original releases and 6 patches )
Each TESCS.exe had/has within itself all the GMSTs that were recognized by the game at the time the exe or patch was released. The three ESM files also have all the GMSTs in them that were recognized by the game at the time they were released. But the values of the GMSTs in the esm files differ from the values in the exe file. ( A way to see this for yourself is to open the editor and NOT load any esm or esps. Export the Gamesettings. Now open the editor and inlude the esm files and again export the Gamesettings. Compare the two exported textfiles and you will see the differences.)
So suppose a modder makes a mod using the latest version of TESCS.exe ( 1.6.1820 which has all the GMSTs from MW and Trib and BM already coded into the exe file ), if said modder does not incude the BM esm file and the TRIB esm file when he opens the editor to make his mod, but only uses the MW esm, as soon as he saves his mod, the TESCS.exe will write ITS values of the GMSTs for Trib and BM into the mod. Voilá 72 bad gmst values included.
If the modder includes the Trib and BM esms when making his mod he had made the mod require that the user have BM and TRIB; if he doesn't include the BM and TRIB esm files, he has created a dirty mod. Most of the BM only GMST values affect werewolves but the TRIB GMST values effect spells, bartering and a bunch of other issues.

There is a bug in the way TESTOOL handles the merging of levelled lists. Basically a levelled list compares the PC's character level to some set value and populates spawn points or containers with appropriate creatures or loot for that character level. It is why you see Mudcrabs and rats when you are level 1 and GoldenSaints and such when you are level 30. Testool in merging levelled lists appended entries from newer mods onto the end of the list. So if a mod wanted to add new creatures at level 1 to a existing list, the player never got to see the creatures at the appropriate level at that spawn point.
http://www.elricm.com/nuke/html/modules.ph...download&sid=20 is the current home for the Levelled List Resequencer by Aerelorn.

There are several hundred GMSTs in the game. They control the equations that determing everything from combat to barter to levelling to disposition, to speed of travel and on and on. They are some of the finest and most precise tools for modding the game and are also sadly underdocumented. GBG's Morrowind Modding for Dummies has a table of them and some explanation of what they control in the appendix of his massive 8th edition. ( also found at the above mentioned web site ).

Just to give one example of the power and precision of GMST's, consider the money pump that is PC made potions. One GMST ( its default value is 2 ) can turn this pump off without removing the magical effects of the potions ( if that GMST is set to 0 ) or can cut the sales price of the potions in half ( if that GMST is set to 1 ).
TESTOOL will not clean that GMST because it is not one of the evil 72.

Merging Objects. If you try to merge objects in the TESCS, the newer object completely overwrites the older one. If you use TESTOOL only the changes in the newer object overwrite. If you have three mods that change various parts of the same object, TESTOOL will merge the changes from each mod into the object. If you have three mods that change the SAME part of an object, only the newest mod's changes will take effect. ( So you could have one mod that changes a spear's reach and another that changes its weight and a third that changes its effect on magical critters and TESTOOL will merge those three different parts of the object, but if the three mods all effect the spear's weight, only the newest mod ( by date stamp ) would take effect.

Merging dialogue. In theory, since all new dialogue entries get random INAM values and the PNAM and FNAM that allows the dialogues to be relinked is supplied by the TESCS.exe routines, merging the dialogues should not be a problem. In actuality, theory is not always spot on. Especially when modders insist on placing their new dialogues at the very top or very bottom of sections. JOG had a very long post explaining this a while ago and EMMA has links to that post on her site ( I believe ).

Cleaning in general. TESTOOL defaults to creating a new mod named CLEANmodname. TESTOOL does not by default change anything in the original mod at all. Check cleanmod, uncheck the original mod in the load list and play.
If you have cleaned and merged however and decide to remove a mod, remember to re merge after you have unchecked the mod you decide to remove.

When you start MW, first the MW.exe file loads, then the esm's load, then the esp load in order from the load list ( not the order in MW.ini ), Then your saved game ess loads and overwrites the data already in memory with the appropriate data from the ess. This is why if you are going to merge objects, dialogue, levelled lists, those esp should be last in the load list. Each esp loaded overwrites the relevant data in any previously loaded esp and esm and the exe.

I believe that ThePal has suggested that the Unofficial Patch does not need cleaning.

If I have used the update time function to put a mod to the end of load order, unfortunately (?) this timestamp is something about year 2020. I have to do this repeatedly because some mods need a special load order (like compatibility fixes have to be loaded after the mods which they change). Now if I proceed with "fix it all" or with the single step merges, the merged lists appear before this year 2020 plugins. Does that mean, everything behind the merge list is not in the merge? And if so, can I just put the merge lists to the end and it would reliably work all right?
Somehow I have a bad feeling with changing the place of the merge lists. Probably I should decrease the 2020 plugins down to current date, so the merged lists would appear at the end automatically...

http://files.tessource.net/files.php?cat=1...=&order=&page=2

You can use the reorder plugins tool here to change the load order instead of testool. It works and is easy to use but sometimes the mere act of opening the program seems to change the load order for me anyhow...so suggest you write down your existing order before using this so you can restore it once you fire up the utility.

I think I know some nice tools for changing the date:

http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/filedatech.html
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/cool/kish/pplusmain.htm

As long as the merged lists are at the end of the line/last to load when morrowind starts up, you are fine. So just use TesTool again after "just fixing it" to re order your plugins. But, as others have suggested, I wouldn't use the dialogue merger esp, seems to cause problems, especially with dialogue heavy quests.

Horatio, doesn't your ESP Cleaner essential work the same way as TesTool does in regards to cleaning? ie: both scan plugin X to see if any changed entries are actually the same in morrowind.esm, tribunal.esm and bloodmoon.esm, then, if there are some, deletetion occurs, as these entries are not needed and potential could override another mod's data. This depends on load order of course.

When you use TESTOOL to merge lists etc, it only merges from esp files that you have marked as active in your load list. If you want, for example, to merge dialogues of all your mods except for Vampire Embrace. Uncheck VE in the active list, run the merge, and then recheck VE.
If you have an esp that loads after the mergeddialogue, mergedobjects, mergedlevelledlist esps, that mod's values will overwrite the specific values in the merge esps. A good general rule is to do the cleaning first, then select the mods you want to deactivate for specific merges, do the specific merge, reactivate the deactivated mods; and then do a refresh on the active mod list to see what the load order willbe. If necessary use the TESTOOL function to change the datestamps on the merge esps to bring them to the end of the list. Some modders have used the 2020 datestamp as a workaround for specific hardcoded errors in the game engine. If that is the case with the mod you are using, just leave it at 2020 and have the merge esps load right before it.

I have never used the fixitall command in TESTOOL. That is just personal preference on my part. I tend to study mods in the editor before I add them to the game or clean them. Other folks have reported using the fixitall command with absolutely no problems. YMMV.

This post has been edited by Iudas: May 12 2005, 05:08 AM

How much of a bad idea would be to clean, say, Necessities of Morrowind (or a plugin that included it, like BEER!)?

It is a shame I had not run across this thread earlier because its answered alot of questions I had about how to do things and also about the mysterious GMST's I always hear about. A special heads up to Iudas for giving the best explanation I have seen yet on this subject.

Iudas is one of this forum's best natural resources.

I have to start a new game for the second time now because of problems with my mods. I thought about putting my mods together (I've heared several times that having many mods overwriting each other can cause problems) into 1 esp file. I thought about using tesame to export the entries of one mod and import them to another. If one entry already exists i create a merged.esp of both mods via testool. Then I check if the enty in the merged.esp overwrites the entries of both mods via tescd. If that's the case with all entries, I import the merged.esp values to the combined .esp file overwriting the entries.

Do you think this will work or are there entries not detected by tesame or tescd?

Yeah, it works now. "Just fix it all", the 3 merged lists are at the right place automatically now. And I just deactivate merged dialogs at the end. Playtesting... smooth, everything looks to be at the right place, clean and without load warnings any more.



I do not (want to) understand this complex attempt. Why don't you just use the merge loaded plugins function of TESCS for this? You just have to load the (to be merged) plugins into TESCS without making one of them "active file", just ignore the warning about that. Then you go "file" -> merge loaded plugins and save the result to a new (merged) plugin.

I often use a whole bunch of quest mods at the same time, and I often use TEStool on them. In my experience, there are only very rare occasions of quest breaking problems. I had some problems with scripted NPCs, like people in prisons in Korobal Island or the Black Mill, or some guy in Suran in the FTG mod (a very sensitive mod that should load late), but most other quest mods have no problems at all.

As more mods hang scripts on NPCs, the inability to merge scripts will be a bigger and bigger cleaning problem.

Spock, I think you are going the long way around the barn to close the door. If you decide that you want to use the Editor to merge several mods into one combined mod, let me suggest that you combine mods that have nothing to do with each other. In other words do not try to combine 10 or 12 weapon mods into one combined mod. The editor is very much a sledgehammer when it combines mods even when you do it properly by not setting an active mod.


The check is in the mail.

Dmitri I have cleaned NOM in the past and do not remember having suffered any negartive consequences. I think NOM is one of the cleanest mods there is already. Remember when you clean a mod with TESTOOL, TESTOOL writes a textfile that elaborates all the changes made in creating the CLeanModName.esp. Worth reading that little text file each time you clean a mod. Problem is that TESTOOL overwrites that textfile each time it cleans a mod, so if one wants to know what TESTOOL has done it is mandatory to only clean one file at a time and then read the logfile. Exactly the way MW creates the programflow.txt and the warnings.txt, MW overwrites those files each time either the game or the editor is started.

I find all of this extreamly confuseing. I don't know if cleaning my mods was such a good idea after reading this long list of it will,can,may do such in such to your game. Now i think I need to go back thru and put all the origenal mod files back into my game and say screw it on cleaning any of the files. Start a new game and move on. This tread almost makes it sound like any gmst errors would be perferable to the possible errors caused by testool.

So far the only thing I'm aware the gmst errors cause is a few problems with bloodmoon spells. If I'm wrong please let me know.

Well besides getting rid of mod errors and conflicts, cleaning can also improve performance and stability of the game. I highly recommend that you clean your plugin's, using TesTool or another 3rd party program available.

It's not as daunting or scary as you think. It's just about making the game play as smoothly and error free as possible.

Well, I am not quite sure now also.


http://members.optusnet.com.au/argent2/mw/tech/gmst.html

This is what I think to be the best solution for me:

1) Uncheck the Mods:
- Vampire Embrace
-Multi Mark
-Solstheim Castle
-Black Mill
-Balancing Mods (all of them)
-Marksman Mod
-Giants (I know this is clean anyway)

2) Fix it all button (TesTool)

3) Uncheck merged dialogs

4) Check the Mods from step 1) again.

If there are more Mods which should not be cleaned and they are not mentioned in this thread or in their readmes -> bad luck.

So your advice would be use it but have it restrict Cell and dialog cleaning?

I've already replaced all the mods that I can with the origenal files. Some of my custom made ones can't be done like that without me going back to a previous version and readding all the changes I made to em. Which I really just don't feel like doing. I've already restarted my game countless times do to problems and would like to be able to just sit back and enjoy for a change.

On another note that lvl resequncer didn't do anything at all for me even tho I know I've merged at least a couple different creature lvls lists.

This post has been edited by TRPStrife: May 13 2005, 10:56 AM

The readme of TESTool tells me that "Fix it all" button proceeds with restricted cells cleaning only.

PS: Forgotten some steps :

5) Create a seperate levelled object and levelled creatures list with all Mods activated

6) Aerolorns resequencer

7) Start a new game, cheat the summon fabricant spell (by console) and test if this works...

This post has been edited by DWS: May 13 2005, 11:26 AM

since this thread is such a good idea I need to bump it by saying "do not" clean my mod changing faces with testool I just did it myself and opps it erased nearly all of my changes to the npcs.

Besides my mod is already cleaned washed it two times

This post has been edited by Leeloo: May 13 2005, 08:29 PM

Uah, Leeloo, I already stone-washed it by "fix" button again... Well, I have got them all zipped in a backup, no problem.

All right, lemme update my little list then:

1) Uncheck the Mods:
-Vampire Embrace
-Multi Mark
-Solstheim Castle
-Black Mill
-Balancing Mods (all of them)
-Unofficial Patch (ThePal)
-Marksman Mod
-Giants
-White Wolf of Lokken Mountain
-Changing Faces Replacer (Leeloo's)

2) Fix it all button (TesTool)

3) Uncheck merged dialogs

4) Check the Mods from step 1) again.

5) Create a seperate levelled object and levelled creatures list with all Mods activated

6) Aerolorns resequencer

7) Start a new game, cheat the summon fabricant spell (by console) and test if this works...

This post has been edited by DWS: May 14 2005, 02:15 AM

I have run Changing Faces through the 'Just Fix It!' process with no problems. I wouldn't worry about it.

If a mod is already clean restricted cleaning with TESTool will not affect it.


I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion, TRPStrife. Read Iudas' posts again: it is pretty clear that restricted cleaning is preferrable to no cleaning at all.

This post has been edited by Pseron Wyrd: May 14 2005, 03:33 AM

Private mobile Base will be destroyed if you mess with it.

I do believe that it also includes cleaning.

Merging is a big nono.

In general, mod makers probably know more about modding and cleaning than mod users so it is better for them to clean their own mods as they are the only ones who can do it safely in the case of complex dialog mods.

There isnt really an excuse for a well known mod not to be already clean (the author would be hounded until he cleaned it).

Perhaps if something like telesphoroses list could tell people if mods were already clean it may make things easier for users.

Summit is doing something like that in that they tell you if the mod has the evil 72 GMST's.

This post has been edited by Cortex: May 14 2005, 05:04 AM

And the fact that every third mod I look at on Summit has said GMSTs tells me that there's an over abundance of modders who don't clean their mods.

Trust no one is my motto, I check every mod in the CS etc. before it gets anywhere near my playlist.

Trouble...

Everything all right until step 5). When I try to create a merged object list with every plugin (some 250) activated then TESTool CTDs in the middle of the process (always).

Now, interestingly with "fix it all" button, and with the plugins from the list deactivated of course, the merged object list is created without issues.

What now? Can I use the old merged object list from the "fix all" process together with the (now) activated excluded plugins from the don't-fix-them-all list?

You are running into the upper limit of files. Counting esm and esp, the game limit is 255 unique files. That is all the engine can handle.
If you wish to play with more than that many expansions and mods, you are going to have to use the editor or TESAME to merge existing mods before you try to run TESTOOL to create your merged objects merged dialogues and merged levelled lists esps.
So if you are playing with MW, TRIB, BM, and creating the three merged mini mods with TESTOOL, you are left with 249 other mods.

But... Morrowind starts with all of the files activated.

I recall that once I had exceeded the limit a few weeks ago, there was a message like "too many files to compile" popped up by Morrowind. But not this time. Just TESTool crashes during object merging only. Everything else, e.g. levelled list works all right.

I try to exclude as many files from object merge as possible now. Things like BrittlewindFix and other non object related mods (hopefully) can be excluded from the object merge.

This post has been edited by DWS: May 15 2005, 07:11 AM

I agree, but this whole "cleaning" process only recently came up. Older mods that existed within the first year of morrowind being out are a different story I believe.

Now, if somebody would be so kind, how can removing entries that are identical to morrowind.esm/tribunal.esm/bloodmoon.esm in a mod cause it to "ruin" said mod? I (sort of) understand the GMST's issue, but is that the primary concern when cleaning?

It's a TEStool limit. The dimension of the temporary file it creates while constructing the object list is limited, so if you give it too many/big files to munch it simply crashes.
I use these steps:
0 - for new game only, sort load order of mods so to optimize conflicts (conflicting mods near each other, most important mod coming last)
1. check all my desired mods
2. run TESTool just fix it; TEStool should be able to
- clean all plugins
- create and check Merged_Leveled_Lists.esp
Then it crashes after trying to create Merged_Objects.esp.
3. run Leveled List Resequencer.exe
4. uncheck some big plugin with no relevant dialog/leveled creatures/items
5. run TEStool merge objects options (eventually repeat step 4 until the file Merged_Objects.esp is succesfully created)
6. check again all previously unchecked mods, Merged_Leveled_Lists.esp and Merged_Objects.esp
7. run TEStool merge dialogs options and check the obtained Merged_Dialogs.esp (this is not suggested by a lot of people, I know this could screw some quest, it did not to me until now, anyway)
8. final touch: delete settings.pkl file in Mopy directory, reload Wrye Mash, sort mod visualization by load order and enable Auto set time option. This way, I'm sure load order of mods is preserved by Mash even if I tamper/debug some mod.
Hope this can help

I have Multi Mark, the Unofficial Patch, and Black Mill installed. I've NO problems using the "Just Fix It" option. It is more conservative than using the individual options. YMMV.

Ok then you are not hitting the MW limit; therefore you are hitting a limit in TESTOOL itself. I do not know how much space TESTOOL dedictates to its temp file for merging objects or if there is some hardcoded limit to the number of object conflicts it can handle.

The "Goblin Lab" I'm pretty sure is one you can't clean the GMST's but I do use TESTool with it.

Wow, just as I think I understand all of this, I get new or slightly conflicting info. I have seen so many different opinions on what to merge and not merge. So, just fix-it or the individual merge options should only be done with new games correct? Can you merge leveled lists while using a save game?

And the objects merge. Is this really necessary? I used to have a lot of problems when including this file (though with my mod ignorance at the time, who can tell if that was the ONLY cause of problems) One specific item that comes to mind is the mallet for instruments that popped up in several mods at one time (ices hideaway, rf's funiture shop, BE ect.) Seems that when I merged objects, it made that object unfit for one or the other of the mods (depending on the order). This is my main reason for not merging. But now, It looks as though I should try again. With so many changes and objects altered it's a small nightmare trying to keep it straight!

oh, on a side note. Is it necessary to completely uninstall mods and all their related textures/meshes/icons? I never have really and the thought of trying to figure out what was overwritten and what is unnecessary is.. ... ...

I think there is another one (restricted cell cleaning or something) besides GMSTs, but just to speak about GMSTs, I have tested something:

Giants.esm for example, if you observe it with the enchanted editor, you find 4 GMSTs in it, they are all from the list of the 72 evil ones, but TEStool does not touch them in the cleaning process. The 4 GMSTs are intended BTW, pumaman explained them in detail, they are NOT dirty.

OTOH there is Vampire Embrace, enchanted Editor tells me there is one GMST and it seems to be an intended one. TESTool removes this one and this ruins Vampire Embrace, therefore it is one of them which should not be cleaned by TESTool.

PS: Thank you, abot. I will try your procedure with my object limit issue.

PPS: Finally, I (think I should) have managed it. Blood, sweat and tears... call bear/wolf is all right (did not find the summon fabricant ID..) - ready to rumble.

This post has been edited by DWS: May 15 2005, 02:10 PM

I guess that you're using TesTool to reorder, and that's why you're tossing settings.pkl. But instead, you can use Mash to do the reordering. Just select the mod to be re-ordered and change its date/time in the details view and then click on "Save". Auto-set time will enforce the new time.

I recommend not cleaning the Unofficial Patch (I've seen some people saying not to clean it, some saying you can clean it in this thread). Basically, the TESTool removes some things that shouldn't be removed (at least the last version I tried did) so some fixes will disappear (not sure if it will create problems or not). This is mainly because I do things in ways I probably shouldn't.

PMB, if you use more than one esp (of the four possible), should NEVER be cleaned, editted, anything......

It destroys the mod.

I know, thanks, but TESTool can easily auto-reorder multiple file dates, while Mash can order only one at a time (or I still didn't understand how to do multiple files reordering, quite possible ).
Adding the feature to drag & drop multiple entries to sort file date would be an awesome improvement to Mash... OK, I know Mash is discontinued and that I could do myself with a "little" Python study, but hope is always in a fan heart
Apart from implementing the ctrl + drag & drop multiple files date sorting, which I recognise could be a too big request, what about a "reset memorized dates to current mod dates" button? this could avoid erasing the configuration file.
The more I tamper with mods, the more I appreciate TESTool and Mash. TESTool is great for cleaning/moving/ordering things, Mash for restoring order/preventing problems and even repairing doublings & relinking broken entries.

Mournhold Clockmaker should not be cleaned with TESTool.

In the ReadMe, I indicated that the mod can be cleaned provided that the option for "Restricted dialog cleaning" is selected (athough the mod is clean in any case and does not require cleaning).

In later tests, I learned that TESTool removes dialogue additions even when this option is selected.

I do not know the reason for this, but I now advise mod users to avoid cleaning any dialogue addition mods with TESTool for this reason. It is quite possible that many users would never encounter a problem caused by the deletion of dialogue entries (the effect is very limited) but the deletion is still unnecessary and damages the mod.

The readme for TEStool claims that "fix it all" button cleaning would be restricted cell cleaning only. I assume this means "fix it all" would be full dialog cleaning, restricted cell cleaning. The option settings seem to be valid for the single step ESP/ESM cleanings. I would like to know if that makes a difference: fix it all vs. single step cleaning... would be nice if someone could test this. I guess Mournhold Clockmaker would be a good candidate for this.

BTW, I just have backupped all of the "don't clean by TEStool" files into another folder. So after a cleansing process I can always overwrite my data files folder with the complete set of backup.espms without the activate/deactivate work (risk reduction also).

This post has been edited by DWS: May 16 2005, 12:46 PM

I think that pretty much sums up how I feel after reading this thread twice. I'm still confused but hopefully I've gained enough knowledge to make some safe conclusions. (safe as in minimize negative results while gaining most possitive results)

1.don't use testool on dialog intense mods
2.dont use testool on quest mods
3.do use testool on creature mods with the exception of giants
4.do use testool on mods that later weapons/armor and other objects
5.do use testool on mods that alter the level lists
6.use the just fix it feature after removing mods from the play list that you dont want to be effected
7.use a level list resequencer
8.uncheck or delete merged dialogs

I've decided that this is just too advanced of a subject for me to understand currently. So I'm just trying to create a quick reference of safe ways to use testool.

Side note: I'm aware there are exceptions

Please let me know if those statements are not true

It is not that hard as it sounds. I have cleaned 250 active plugins recently by using TEStool like described in this thread:

1) You just activate everything EXCEPT the mods which are listed in this thread.

2) Press "Fix it all" button.

3) Deaktivate ALL of the created merged lists at the end.

4) Activate every wanted mod, the mods which have been deactivated in 1) should be active this time !

5) Create a merged levelled list (only) by TESTool and use the resequencer with this list, activate the merged levelled list.

6) Optional: Create a merged object list, activate it.

I do not have seen any issues with 6) so far, just that I was not able to have all of my 250 mods activated with this step (because of a limitation with TESTool).